Comments on: Centro is the Summers 4th Most Popular Smartphone

"Rose" and "Green" have been pictured and are suspected to still be in the works

And the beat goes on.

The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com

Why would Centro, part II be a candybar? Think flip - I;ve watched many a teenybopper snap theur flip phone closed with a satisfying "Kerplack!" after texting someone - in fact, I watched one do that over and over again as she was standing in line interacting via text with someone - text, kerplack, tone, read, reply, kerplack, tone, read, reply, kerplack...

Think Blackberry Pearl, part II...

I should mention that the third pic (left to right) is slightly shorter than just increasing the screen size to 480x320. I took a slice out between the bottom of the screen and the top of the D-pad/buttons area. I think the picture on the far right is what you were asking for.

Oh, and I didn't attempt "actual size" since I had previously done the harder work on the screen using the red Centro pic. And I think "actual size" will be relative to your monitor's size and resolution anyway. I suppose you can try stretching or shrinking the picture yourself while you hold your Centro up to it (second from the left).


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

Me likey number one!

The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com

i still think it could be easily done from a technological standpoint, but i'm not sure expending any of palm's limited resources on it makes business sense given the probable limited long-term impact on market share. they already did 480x320 for other devices, and they could have the treo/centro "favorites buttons" menu automatically come up on the bottom for any app that doesn't support 480x320 (instead of the soft graffiti area).

hkk - boy, you're turning into a really jaded SOB on palm! i think you've now surpassed me!

1. Good point. It's just that I am loathe to use the words "Palm" and "moving parts" in the same sentence at this stage of the game!

2. But even if Palm is right now prepping such a device for release, how can they hope to stop the juggernaut that is RIM's Pearl flip?

3. Continuing the point above, I am SURE a flip phone would attract quite a bit of attention to Palm. But the question is can Palm live with the brutally small margins on a "$99 or free" flip smartphone?

4. I'll stick to my guns on this one

5. Ditto

6. ....

7. Let's see....what kind of non-essential "fluff" could Palm rip out of the Centro and still call it a Centro? IR port (not a huge savings), the microSD card (not a good idea given Garnet's pitiful onboard storage/RAM limitations), the vibrating alarm, Bluetooth (Garnet's BT stack is so pitiful it wouldn't be much of a loss), the stylus and the touchscreen.

8. I am unaware of there ever being non-touchscreen Palm OS device actually released and made available for sale. Even Dana's Alphasmart, targeted at a very niche vertical market (the education sector, which generally isn't one to be flooding callcenters with cries of help with a half-decade year-old abandoned app doesn't work) had a touchscreen with Graffiti support. So did the Fossil WristPDA watch. I highly doubt Palm would release anything with the Palm name & some variant of the Palm OS on it that broke any all hope of compatibility with a dozen years' worth of apps & UI.

To summarize, in its current form, Garnet doesn't support:
Internal RAM larger than 128mb, Bluetooth A2DP and/or BT 2.0 EDR. It doesn't support 802.11g nor does it support multiple wireless radios in a single device (telephony, BT, wi-fi). It doesn't support EVDO Rev.A nor does it support HSPA/UMTS for GSM networks. External expansion cards are only seen as 4GB volumes and it's a very unsecure (no WPA2 AES etc), non-multi-tasking/multi-threading OS. And it has zero (or nearly zero) intelligant power management/CPU throttling support. Finally, most of the inherent functional of Garnet user experience still relies too much on Palm Desktop, which in itself is a nearly-dead dinosaur that's been abandoned by Access with only the minimum of Windows Vista compliance. (and I have a sneaky feeling Windows 7 is going to be hitting the market sooner than we think).

And, while this is beyond the bredth of my technical know-how but I have a feeling that the future generations of mobile chipsets/CPUs might not even be compatible with Garnet (such as the Qualcomm MSM7201 chipset used in the Treo Pro). And let's not even get into screen resolutions higher than 320x480, WiMax etc etc. For all practical purposes, especially those of Palm's customers (ie the carriers) it's dead (GSM) or dying (CDMA).

IMHO, Palm would really be silly to throw any more $ into Garnet at this point, short of a tweaked Centro 2 with a few hardware improvements (2mp camera, larger 320x320 LCD, higher capacity battery, 3.5mm headphone jack, microUSB connector).

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

> ...I highly doubt Palm would release anything with the Palm name & some
> variant of the Palm OS on it that broke any all hope of compatibility
> with a dozen years' worth of apps & UI...

You are totally wedged into Fanboy-Think.

Stop it.

Start thinking "DUHmb".

Start thinking "Oh Kewl! I =luv= those rhinestones! And purple color!"

Start thinking "Kerplack!" as a major selling point.

God.

Now you're thinking...

> ...God...

That was, of course, supposed to have another 'o'...you're good, bu ya ain;t God yet!

SV;

First of all, I'm not a Palm fanboy. I am a long-time user of the Palm OS platform who feels that the original Pilot was a truly revolutionary device upon its release in 1996. The PIM apps & 3rd party software library of the Palm OS are still unmatched and the UI is clean, uncluttered, and simple for day-to-day tasks (though in desperate need of a facelift). But a fanboy for Palm Inc. and their products/actions of the past 7-8 years? Certainly not!

Smoke & mirrors marketing (day-glo colors, respinning the same model/formfactor year after year etc) is gonna get old quickly, especially now that RIM (once THE poster child of stodgy, clunky, boring industrial design) has awakened and started churning out stuff like the Pearl, Bold, Storm/Thunder etc.

That said, your points about features targeting the mass market are good and, IMO, this is where Palm could/should have done more to differentiate the Centro 1 from its Treo predecessors. A few easy "kerplacks!" that Palm could easily add to a Garnet-powered Centro 2 mass market-style device would be 3.5mm stereo headphone jack, a gig or two of onboard storage, an integrated Facebook app & an improved Google Maps (perhaps street level views that are integrated with the Palm OS address book).

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

Ah, SV, you must've missed my comments (usually buried amidst a flurry of many similar comments from others) that at THIS stage of the game, ASSUMING Nova exists & appears on a "real" device within the next 6-12 months, I have given up any hope of backwards compatibility with Garnet. In fact, I can quite easily live WITHOUT any backwards compatibility! It'd be NICE but is by no means a crucial must-have feature for me any more. At this point, Palm OS about the comfort & familiarity of the UI and of course the splendid PIM apps.

Stuff like at least a basic photo viewers and media players will hopefully be integrated into the core Nova OS package. Dataviz will presumably be onboard with DTG and stuff like Bejeweled can always be re-purchased. I just want a future non-WM device from Palm to EFFORTLESSLY import my 12+ years of Palm OS PIM data. They need to bundle or build in an easy to use migration tool that can import PIM data from all Palm OS devices, whether a 1996 Pilot 1000 or a 2008 Centro with no missing/jumbled fields or corruption.

Assuming Palm doesn't show something Nova-related soon....I may very likely at least consider jumping ship to a BB Thunder since my 755p's digitizer has started fading on me (what a surprise!) and Verizon cannot seem to find any units anywhere (refurb or otherwise) to offer as warranty replacements.

P.S. I still say Nova ain't comin'...and if it is, we won't see it before this time next year by which point it'll be far too late for Palm.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

Remember when I hypothesized that, in an effort to stay in business, Palm & Access might start working together more closely to cobble the best bits of Garnet, ALP, and possibly even Cobalt into a "Palm OS 5.9"? Basically Garnet-based but with its most glaring deficiencies addressed (yes, I know you said "think dumbphone" but still). I'm no OS guru but would be it be THAT hard to shoehorn, say, >4GB file volume recognition, BT 2.0/A2DP and >128mb RAM capabilities into Garnet?

Again, going back to 2003 here.....Cobalt was SUPPOSED to be the enhanced Garnet, remember?

I just think that the MAJOR stumbling block Palm's gonna run into here is going to be Garnet's lack of multi-tasking/multi-threading and its shoddy telephony stack. EVDO Rev. A and GSM UMTS/HSPA all require simultaneous processes. And you don't exactly tweak an aging OS in a fortnight to be a smooth multi-tasker so it can do stuff like simultaneous voice/data some of the cheapest dumbphones can do nowadays.

So I think that Palm is basically stuck to go a US-only, CDMA EVDO Rev. 0-exclusive strategy from here on (as I think the GSM carriers are going to want to move past EDGE on even the cheapest handsets pretty soon). But let's use the example of saying the kids want to enjoy high-quality audio playback on their new gadgets: What's a cheaper way for Palm to extend Garnet's life expectancy for another year--cobble together OS improvements (native A2DP and/or licensing & tweaking Audio Gateway) or just try to spec the best hardware (3.5mm headphone jack) that Garnet can support & allowed by the margins on a <$99 handset?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

Totally and utterly unsurprising. I mean, he doesn't offer up any solid PROOF but Palm has getting by on their cash reserves, their brand equity, smoke'n mirrors marketing and a wing & a prayer for, oh, three years or so now. It was bound to catch up to them eventually.

On a related note, where's the Wanda? I was supposed to have come out last month!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9536/palm-wanda-treo-500-successor-leaked/

Are they jettisoning future product as well as employees now? Maybe the company is planning to EOL *EVERYTHING* other than variants of the Treo Pro and the Centro?

Meanwhile, the 1-2-3 punch of the new touchscreen BB Storm, Xperia X1 and of course the iPhone 3G shows that Palm is lagging EVERYONE in releasing a modern, large-screened device.

P.S.
Fearless prediction o' the day: Palm will release a Verizonized 800w, a CDMA Treo Pro for Sprint and a few "limited eidtion" Centro colors between now and Q1 '09 as their swan song as a standalone corporate entity.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

Let me start out by saying that at this point, the gloom and doom talk on this site is mostly Palm's fault. They've consistently refused to tell us anything significant about Nova and their last attempt at a game-changing device, the Foleo, was a textbook cast in how *not* to roll out a new product. With that in mind let me say what I'd do if I were in charge of Palm. (Hey everybody else around here does that, right?)

First of all, I'd absolutely put out a 480x320 phone. Whether they call it a Treo, Centro, Nova, or Steve is less important than the fact that big, rectangular screens display more information and are simply nicer than small, square ones and that Palm can charge more for a phone with a big screen. Keep a mildly refreshed Centro as the entry level device and push upgraders to the bigger-screened, more expensive deluxe version. I'd use a slider to keep it small. Whatever anyone says about the Tungsten T3's reliability, the fact is that it's one of the most fondly remembered Palm devices mostly because of its compact size and rich feature set.

Second, I'd bring out the Nova OS early even if the UI isn't ready. I'm assuming that Nova is still in the pipeline and that the kernel at least is ready. (If it's not, then HKK's gloomy claim that Nova will never come out is likely true and there's not much point in being here anyway.) I'd pair that kernel with a Garnet emulator. (Backward compatibility is essential for me. Without it, I might as well just move to the iPhone, Android, or even Windows Mobile.) If Access can bring out a Garnet emulator, so should Palm.

Put the emulator, a skinning application, and a modern web browser on a fully buzzword compliant phone with up to date wifi, bluetooth, with 4GB of memory and an SDIO slot that accommodates the largest capacity cards possible, a nice keyboard, and a slider that opens up to reveal a big screen. Then you'd have a modern, good-looking device that is backward compatible with previous Palm devices that will carry Palm into the future and take the pressure off of the Nova project. Hell, if Palm could replace the underlying kernel and allow Garnet to transcend its limitations, they might discover that they don't need a new OS. HKK's prediction would come true but it would be a good thing for Palm since it would allow them to start over again but this time with a solid foundation to build upon.

Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

>I'd bring out the Nova OS early even if the UI isn't ready.

an unfinished, buggy UI ain't going to be good for anybody.

Which is why in the rest of my post, I said that I'd use the Garnet UI on top of the Nova kernel. That would be a win, win for me - a proven, intuitive OS running atop
a modern, stable kernel.

>Backward compatibility is essential for me.

you're in the minority of palmos users.

Am I? You've taken a poll? Can I see the numbers?

>I'd use a slider to keep it small.

slider = PIA and moving parts = failure

Tell that the to all the Tungsten T3 fans who put up with the occasional failing slider or missing screw because they liked the form factor. The slider is no different from a clamshell in this respect - it allows the manufacturer to reduce the bulk of their device at the expense of creating a point of failure but if the device is cheap enough or if Q&A is good enough, it can be worth it for both the manufacturer and the user.

>with 4GB of memory

hell will freeze over before you see this. how long did it take them to scale up to 128MB???

The LifeDrive had a 4GB hard drive three years ago. The Tungsten T5 had 256MB four years ago. Since then, memory prices and density have improved to the point where it would probably be difficult to find OEM chips with less than 128MB. The bottom line is that everybody on this site keeps screaming that Palm needs to do something to improve their devices. Adding more memory is probably cheaper and easier than anything else that Palm could do.

Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

palm has neither the ability nor desire to fight and win a feature/spec war. they will continue to live off of the goodwill of their loyal customers.

the goodwill of their loyal customers

the goodwill of their remaining customer.

There I corrected it for him.

The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com

So Kent, what's your expert take on all of this?

Will Nova come out Q2 '09, be delayed until 2010 or never come out at all? Furthermore, do you think Nova is/was ever a real project or just smoke & mirros designed to fool Palm's shareholders into thinking they are busy doing SOMETHING other than trying to cook up new Centro colors and sell the company?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

interesting rumor that MSFT may buy RIMM at $50/share............

that'll make things interesting.....................

nasty week in the markets............president obama scares me......

time to get some cocktails and some p***y...........

good night all.............

no, i own it. but i, like many others, have gotten pretty beat up the last few weeks. but, unlike you, i believe in America.

- http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/14/sprint-unwraps-olive-green-and-vibrant-rose-hues-for-palm-centro/

Damn, now THAT'S innovative!

The Centro gets to go up against these now:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/14/atandt-goes-wild-with-texting-announces-four-qwerty-phones/

LOL, I was JUST about to post this very same link and say "SV, here is that armada of QWERTY dumbphones you were waitin' for!"

In all seriousness, it's too bad Palm hasn't decided to share the Centro hardware update love with other carriers. Or perhaps AT&T and Verizon have too much old Centro inventory still clogging the channel.

The GSM Centro, lacking 3G, is probably really going to suffer the most in the short-term without some drastic price reductions (I'm talking domestically, I would assume the situation abroad is no better).

I STILL am stunned that Palm didn't make a bigger push and try to call this the "Centro X" or "Centro 2" or something. Unless...downplaying the RAM boost keeps them from having to get it recertified by the FCC AND lets them say "3 million Centros sold" instead of having to start over again from scratch with a new SKU.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyEFiaUQYGE

Thanks, Adama. I was always a little hazy on what kinds of changes necessitated recertification. Someone here a while back had said ANY internal changes but I figured that would be a bit much, even for the feds.

Maybe this "quiet" Centro upgrade is a sign that....umm......Nova isn't coming anytime soon?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p

1. is there a limit to how much RAM Garnet can handle?

2. specs don't sell phones, features do.

3. i go to palm.com store and see no store or link to buy apps or mp3s or videos. why not set this up? shiit, partner with amazon or someone if you have to.

4. update palm desktop to include an itunes module - helps fight apple.

5. create a better "mobileme" like a "mypalm" to sync PIM data via cloud via push - helps fight blackberry.

6. these guys at palm are like pigeons in a cage. they just sit there and take it. i can't understand it. so many opportunities lost. over and over again. what do they waste their limited time and resources on? fooleo.

>5. create a better "mobileme" like a "mypalm" to sync PIM data via cloud via push - helps fight blackberry.

maybe buy or partner with a company like mail2web.com and offer a free or low cost palm-branded subscription push email exchange server/cloud PIM solution with specialized app(s)? think outside the box!

Gekko - I'm aware of the Bosco references, and I love them.

For example, this was Friday night for me:

http://tinyurl.com/6rxgpb

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Um, no. I do not like the Asus keyboards. And dedicated graphics - for what? I don't do games and it'll probably cut down battery life.

MSI Wind is still the best:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/micro-fondle-msi-wind-at-jr/

Disclaimer: Haven't seen or fondled the Samsung or Lenovo ones yet. (But I did do the S101 from Asus and didn't even bother with crapcam pics. $700 for an ATOM CPU? Hilarious!!)

>>>wasn't it you that was moaning about the current crop of netbooks' inability to play 720p+ video?

Ew. No. Never. I'm not one of those HD freaks (OK, they have lotsa $$$, so: freaques).

Listen, I haven't touched a Palm since the Centro at Digital Life Expo back when. I have no desire to filthy my fingrrz with the The Last Gasp Treo.

No WinMo devices in the top four! Do you think any Microsoft licensee's product made even the top five?

...and Palm now basically has ONE "active" PalmOS device - the Centro.

With as many color, radio and sequin options to match the number of WinMob manufacturers...

And what they're calling the new "Treo" sure looks like basically a lousy Centro to me...


Paying my annual PDA update tax to Palm since 1997.

I'd take a long sniff of ALP. If I thought it had a future and that it was very good. I'd license it. If not, Android.

(I'd also be negotiating a mighty fine golden parachute.)

About 18-ish months ago, maybe a couple more, Palm decided the company could NOT be saved and that the best route for them to follow was to sell it. They tried to sell it and failed (to get a bid satisfactory enough - same thing). They instead ended up selling one quarter of the company and returning a massive amount of the cash they had to the shareholders; this was a very good move for the shareholders because it gave them back essentially half of the company's value right up front - that is, it decreased (dramatically) the inherent value of the company SUDDENLY and did so by actually giving it to shareholders rather than letting that value trickle away slowly as the company did worse and worse and burned up that cash fruitlessly (of course, the corollary is that the company has significantly decreased lifetime should their all-or-nothing gamble not pay off). To do all this they went from a huge cash position and no debt to a low-cash position and massive debt. At this time and probably at LEAST for quarters to come they're decreasing the value of the company by having negative results - they are not profitable.

So...how to SAVE the company =now=?

Maybe what's being done behind the scenes IS the best way to do that still. Since they made the decision a lot of stuff like the iPhone has clobbered them, true, but they really don't have many alternatives to following the same course.

Perhaps selling the Centro line to someone could garner enough money to pay off their debt and pull in some more bucks for their shareholders? Maybe not...those preferred shares of the original deal have some special privileges that might stop that thought.

Palm lives in interesting times...

==========

The thoughts behind the first couple paragraphs above are taken directly from "The History of The Transaction" as filed by Palm with the SEC - Def14A or something like that.

I believe they are still trying to sell the company or part of it. I believe the (weak) evidence is they continue to cut the company down in size (or the equivalent of that - removing expensive labor and replacing by cheap labor). I believe they are going to TRY to hit the ball out of the park with Nova but maybe NOT by simply introducing a phone with it, but a component system (as I mentioned I wanted years and years ago); the way things move with the competition, though, I think a (necessary) homerun is unlikely.

====

Donna Dubinsky stopped selling shares back when Palm said they were gonna try to sell themselves; she hasn't restarted that selling. Maybe her shares are all "free" now so she has no concern about final valuation or maybe Palm's still trying to sell and she's restricted from selling still.

Hawkins, on the other hand, said he became an ex-something and dropped off the Insider Sales because of that (though Palm's web pages continue to insist he's an Insider...weird...).

So, anyway, I think Palm's still trying to dump themselves off on someone while simultaneously spending what little precious cash they have left to develop Nova et al.

1. I'd drag Garnet out behind the chemical sheds and shoot it in the head. They should have had a new platform years ago.

2. Jump on board with Android. It's new enough that there's not a lot of competition yet, but it's popular enough that it wouldn't be a herculean task to drum up interest.

3. Invest some money in design research. The styling and build on the last set of Treos and Centros has been generally just bad. Compare the Treo 800w to something like the Samsung models, say the Blackjack II. You'll find that the Treo is a much less ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing device.

4. A spate of new models. My first choices would be a dual-flip smartphone, not dissimilar from the Samsung Alias; a side-sliding businessphone in the style of the Touch Pro or SE Xperia; and a tablet media player/web browser with a big screen, like a slimmed down and sexed up version of the iPAQ 210.

5. Get in bed with Sprint/Clearwire. Be the first one to get a WiMAX smartphone on the market, followed closely by a WiMAX-enabled media tablet.

well i think we are making some progress. not one response saying "I'd roll out new PDAs!"

I think that betting on WiMAX really only makes sense at this point. What is there to wait for, exactly? More coverage? Great, but it's not like Sprint/Clearwire and Intel aren't dedicated to pushing this network. If they go for a WiMAX enabled smartphone and an iPaq or Nokia style media tablet now, then they should be ready to roll around the time Sprint XOHM coverage is hitting a bunch more major cities.

It would be particularly smart to work with Sprint to develop a cheaper "pay per use" type model: instead of a fixed monthly rate, offer the option for people to pre-pay at $2 per 24 hours of use or the like. Provide two weeks worth of credits with any new device to get them hooked.

One way or another they have to stabilize a revenue stream not associated with the carriers. The subsidized race-to-the-bottom business model is slowly killing them.

For those of you who think Android is the solution, here's another perspective:
http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/64863.html


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7380/#145713

has gotten a little more serious:

- http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147770&page=1&pp=15

Sean Ambrose: [disguised as Ethan Hunt] You keep calling me Dimitri. You really shouldn't.
Dr. Nekhorvich: You are not Dimitri?
[Ambrose knocks him out]
Sean Ambrose: No