Comments on: Palm Has No Plans to Support Symbian
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RE: Good idea, Palm...
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
The Minnow Still Swims!
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
According to Gartner DataQuest, Palm shipped 1,082,000 handhelds (PDAs and Treos) in the third quarter of 2005.
Perhaps their bank balance is a little healthier than many folks here think.
Even RIM only shipped around 800k units in the same period - so Palm, despite all the negative spin her in the PIC discussions, still have solid sales and are enticing new users (and upgraders) to part with cash.
Even if sales drop off over the next couple of quarters, we should be into the first generation of Palm Linux devices by then and the handheld landscape could take on a whole different appearance very quickly, if they make the right design decisions now.
For example, I don't think many punters here will tolerate a revolutionary new Palm if it looks like a revamped T|E and lacks USB host connectivity (something the Linux kernel can handle very nicely).
KultiVator
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
Hmmm, it's never an entirely bad thing to be an optimist....
These posts by LiveFaith and KultiVator warm my heart. (I just love the subject line!) You know, I like the fact that PIC has people who care a lot about the Palm platform and hold it to high standards--standards that it sometimes fails to live up to. But what all too often is missing here are moments when someone expresses a little gratitude for what the Palm economy has achieved. Palm and PalmSource are small companies battling titans of this industry and they are delivering products that in the eyes of their customers are among the very best of their kind. They quite literally created this industry and whatever else you might say about recent events like the Access acquisition and the WM Treo announcement, they show the enormous respect these companies command from their peers.
In an imperfect world you do need to look hard at how things can be better, but you will never build the energy to bring those improvements to reality if you don't give thanks for the good work that has been done. So, thanks guys.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
However, I ALWAYS give credit where credit is due and I think Palm should be applauded for several decisions:
1. Doing their part to push Bluetooth as a "serious" wireless standard early on. The first BT device I ever owned in any shape or form was the T|T back in '02. To date Palm has shipped nine separate devices with Bluetooth functionality standard. That's quite impressive for a small company with a glacial release schedule.
2. Ditto for SD. Arguably even more important than Bluetooth...my first SD-enabled device was my m505. I then bought the first SD digicam (Panasonic iPalm) in '02 so I could standardize on one format...and it's been the same ever since in a parade of handhelds, mp3 players and camcorders. Say what you will, Palm's SD woes have been nothing compared to Sony and their maddening revolving door of Memory Stick permutations & sub-formats (Pro, Duo, MagicGate etc).
3. Shoring up the lowend of the handheld market. Right now there's a huge vacum that exists between $40 Royal/Casio/Sharp organizers and $200+ PDAs/Smartphones. Aside from cheap cell phones there's nothing occupying that sector other than Palm's Zire/Z offerings. Also due to the inherent limitations of FrankenGarnet and Palm's preferred component purchasing (160*160 DSTN screens, 32mb memory chips, white plastic cases), Palm continues to field strong entries into this surprisingly high-margin sector makes perfect sense. What's the cheapest Axim you can buy new? $250ish now that the X30 line is gone? Slogging it out in the $100 PDA market (sold at Target to MILFS) may not be the most glamorous or high-growth segment of the market but it _still_ fills the corporate coffers and funds future Treo/LifeDrive development. This falls in line with KultiVator's comments above. Maybe enough Z22s will eventually be sold so that Palm can wrangle Graffiti 1 back from Xerox (yeah right!)
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
Sadly Palm have long lost this imepetus. It has just launched a device which still uses Bluetooth 1.1 when the current standard is at 2.0 and other companies (Apple, Dell, Toshiba etc) have been shipping products using Bluetooth 2.0 for some time now.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
...likewise there are Palm OS devices that support BT 2.0, just not from Palm.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=8173
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
I agree. However, I remember the avalanche of complaints here at PIC when Palm settled on the SD/MMC format as their standard - that is, complaints that they did not support Compact Flash. With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, they did the right thing to go with the more compact form of add-on memory.
Another thing to add to the list - NVFS - which permits longer usage on a single charge and some protection against data loss. While there were hundreds of complaints here at PIC about this innovation, those complaints withered away once MS announced that Windows Docile would support 'persistent memory'. (Funny about that.)
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
And another thing ... Palm's raison d'etre is NOT to make a contribution to an amorphous 'industry' thing. They are engaged in a business of producing handheld computers which users want to buy, and doing so in a manner which will put food on the table for Palm's stockholders, employees and suppliers. That's the objective (if it's not, then the Board should be fired). If competitors want to follow Palm's lead, then that's up to them.
RE: The Minnow swims into the mouth of the shark.
You don't seem to have a clue about technology. The complaints that I (and a few other PalmOS veterans) made about SD were (and still are) entirely valid. Anyone who knows anything about PDAs realizes that in terms of functionality, CompactFlash absolutely DESTROYS SD. How long have users waited for vaporware SD peripherals? CF is available in higher capacities and for less money than SD. Do you see any Microdrives in SD format? If Palm supported CF the way TRG/HandEra did and actually provided drivers for the equipment we would have a wide variety of LAN cards, modems, Bluetooth cards, etc. available for our PDAs. Instead, we have almost nothing. The arguments that CF was "too big" or used too much power are absolute nonsense. The only place the size advantage of SD might be significant is in small devices like smartphones. Stay in school, Little Bubba.
Another thing to add to the list - NVFS - which permits longer usage on a single charge and some protection against data loss. While there were hundreds of complaints here at PIC about this innovation, those complaints withered away once MS announced that Windows Docile would support 'persistent memory'. (Funny about that.)
Too bad Palm's implementation of NVFS was Not Ready For Prime Time. Was it "Funny about that" when it crashed and burned severely, taking the remaining shreds of Palm's credibility along with it? The NVFS debacle was a turning point for many people that have now given up on Palm as a brand. If any Windows Mobile manufacturer ships even a single PDA with NVFS as poorly-implemented as the Tungsten 5, they deserve to be tarred and feathered.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
How sad.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
Your is best appreciated by remembering the context - by bearing in mind scores (if not hundreds) of your tongue-in-check posts regaling us to the glories of Sony Memory Sticks, etc. And the wonderful punch-line (how you can type it with a straight face?) you accuse others of being clueless about technology, about losing all shreds of credibility, etc. Brilliant; such wonderful irony. Your Nobel Prize for Comedy was so well deserved.
I look forward to hundreds more posts from you on how the Sony CLIE line will destroy Palm, how Palm is incompetant (as compared to those masterminds at Sony), etc, etc, etc.
Bozo.
RE: The Minnow Still Swims!
CF makes for a good "super-sized" storage format AND expansion card. There's simply no reason that Palm couldn't have done a LifeDrive style device but instead of the internal MicroDrive atrocity, simply had an SDIO slot alongside a CF slot. Then let the user worry about stuffing it with any number of flash/HD cards. It'd be nice to see compaies like Socket etc. have a reason to write Palm drivers for their CF expansion cards.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
The Palm ecosystem is not healthy
This conversation of cf vs sd is symptomatic of the current lack of choices regarding sources of hardware currently. Obviously it would be mad for any one company to make a wide variety of form factors. At the very least it would indicate they have no idea what the market wants. But by only having one supplier there's no source of providers for the niche areas. You only have one company going for the highest volume (which is pretty sensible really) vs a whole ecosystem of companies going for (and attempting to satisfy) each and every customer.
Surur
I'm sorry to hear you feel this way.
I've never said Sony's use of Memory Stick was anything other than a calculated decision to make money by using a proprietary standard. Their profit margin on Memory Sticks is obscene* and they've even got companies like Lexar and SanDick to pony up licensing fees for the honor of being able to produce Memory Sticks. As the owner of a standard, they obviously had good reasons to use it (even though it initially was Not Ready For Prime Time) instead of the superior format (CompactFlash). But what was Palm's excuse? They neither owned the SD format nor did they have a snowball's chance in he11 of getting SDIO cards released in time for it to matter. The only irony here is the fact that you don't know the meaning of the word.
[*After seeing how larger capacity Memory Sticks were sold out for weeks after the PSP was launched, it appears that Sony knows exacty what they're doing. Memory Sticks might have become analogous to Gilette's razor blades if only Sony had wised up + included a Memory Stick slot in the PlayStation 2.]
I look forward to hundreds more posts from you on how the Sony CLIE line will destroy Palm, how Palm is incompetant (as compared to those masterminds at Sony), etc, etc, etc.
Nice to hear that you're a fan. Tryouts for the TVoR Cheerleading Squad are next week - bring your own pom-poms. In some ways the Sony CLIE line DID damage Palm significantly by showing consumers how weak Palm's hardware was by comparison. Palm lost a lot of potential customers for good because those of us who have used CLIEs would never accept using a shoddy "Made in China" Palm-branded PDA now that we're used to high quality equipment. Try not to be jealous, ma'am.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
I just heard from a ***very reliable source*** that there is indeed a new Palm Treo and a Symbian Treo in the works for both CDMA and GSM networks.
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/10/palm-treo-and-symbian-treo-in-works.html
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
Because of u I now have Whitney Houston in my head and I cannot get her out.
Not funny.
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
Wow! So this means that Palm is dumping wince! :)
I wonder if this is related to the recently announced closure of the wince division at microsoft, the "repositioning" of many wince engineers onto "other projects", and the rolling of the wince product into the "entertainement" division? :)
Pehaps Palm just doesn't want to be associated with a losing platform like wince? :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
Who said it wasn't the original by George Benson?
:-)
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Jimmie, you LIED to me!!!!
Originally Posted by Jimmie Geddes
I wrote this on my site yesterday. I got the information from a source a few weeks ago and published an article, engadget published my story as well.
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/...to-fire_02.htmlI think the fact that Ed is talking so much about this is only re-affirming that this device was made, but will not be released due to Nokia.
I have been listening objectively to you for awhile now. I had no previous knowledge of you before you began posting on this site, and have only read what you've written here, as well as a few excerpts from your blog (I refuse to call it a "site"), and I have one question for you:
Do you EVER have the faintest backing for the things you say?
I do not believe you do. I find your view of yourself as some type of handheld/PDA professional strange and off-putting. You are...odd is the best thing I can think of.
Then again, I talk to squirrels.
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=99315&page=1&pp=20
It warms the ****les of my heart to see sycophants get their comeuppance.
Surur
Palm hardware sucks
As a simple example, most phones just keep a limited number of calls in the call history, and they often have a really annoying habit of only storing 'unique' numbers - so if 'martha' has called my 5 times, I only get to see a single entry, for the last time she called, perhaps along with a counter showing that she has actually called 5 times in total. With the treo, I can see each and every call. And I can write, or download apps that can do even more with that data. This flexibility, along with the palmOS ease of use is why the treo is worthwhile. Not the hardware.
RE: Palm hardware sucks
What you're really saying is that the only reason that the Palm OS Treo dominates in the smartphone space is that is has Palm OS? :)
That's a pretty strong endorsement. Doesn't bode very well for the wince Treo, of course. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Palm hardware sucks
None of them have set the world on fire. Why not ? They run windows. They don't have the palm marketing, or ease of use.
What the treo does well, or at least, better than the others, is integrate a phone into the PDA - or put another way - bring full PDA flexibility and ease of use to your phone.
RE: Palm hardware sucks
Also, they tended to have none standard resolutions like 240*240, yes that is support by winmob but isn't great for 3rd party apps.
Fish
Vicious POS Treo rumors
xenophonite
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 569I talked to our Sprint business rep (based out of the Sprint HQ). He said the Sprint's focus is on Windows Mobile, no longer PalmOS. They will continue to sell the 650 as long as it is a hot seller. The 650 will likely be the last PalmOS-based device by Sprint and once sales slide, the 650 will be gone.
I expect the 650 will sell well into next year but don't expect a new PalmOS-based phone, at least from Sprint.
__________________
Sprint Treo 650 - Globalsat BT-338 GPS - Scala 500 headsetLast edited by xenophonite : Today at 10:24 PM.
xenophonite
-----------------------------------------
Today, 10:25 PM #122
dstrauss
Member
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 877This is the same info I got from our local Cingular rep today (of course, take that one with about a cup of salt). They didn't know details, but knew that two new Windows phones are coming for Christmas, one with a keyboard, and they were replacing those other keyboard phones (not the Blackberries). I'm sure those are the HTC Faraday and Wizard models. I asked if they would continue the Treos and they said probably until they sell out. Go figure.
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=96915&page=7&pp=20
Are the carriers divorcing themselves from PalmOS?
Surur
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Redmond
Posts: 12309848243
My local Cingular reps just told that he didn't like the
color of Treo's at all. "I never did like that shiny color.
I'm going to be immediately halting all Treo sales. Yeah,
I'm not going to sell another Treo. I didn't get where I am
today by giving customers what they want and I don't intend
to start now. I don't care what people ask for. From now on,
they get huge clunky wince boxes that look like darth vader's
helmet."
Wow! Maybe it's true! :)
Moron. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
I doubt it. Conservative as they are they're very unlikely to make a decision like that until they see how the WM Treo does vs the 650. Likewise they're not going to push away from Palm Linux sight unseen. I certainly wouldn't conclude anything based on something said by some clueless reps at a cellphone store.
Truth is, there may very well not be another "Palm OS" Treo and the operators may already be aware of this. The software from PalmSource that would power a future Treo is going to be called something like "Netfront OS." Don't expect Access to let Palm brand it back to Palm OS.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
HOW TO SPOT AN m$ SHILL (It's fun and easy!)
> "...I talked to our Sprint business rep (based out of the Sprint HQ). He said the Sprint's focus is on Windows Mobile, no longer PalmOS..."
Since when did Sprint *ever* "focus" on Palm OS? What does that even *mean*? The claim is so weak and vague it could literally mean *anything* -- very handy if people actually challenge you on the facts. OK, let's press on: :)
> "...They will continue to sell the 650 as long as it is a hot seller. The 650 will likely be the last PalmOS-based device by Sprint and once sales slide, the 650 will be gone..."
This is brilliant. First of all it is not clear if the shill is editorializing, or if this is still supposed to be a quote from the imaginary "sprint rep". Notice the banal obviousness of "they will keep selling Treo 650's as long as they are hot sellers", and "once sales slide, the Treo 650 will be gone". These trivial observations are true for all phones. The clever part here is the lie, slipped between two banal and obvious truths: "The Treo 650 will likely be the last PalmOS-based device by Sprint". Did you spot that? :)
This is an astonishing claim, considering the source is *apparently* supposed to be mere sales rep. Maybe he's a clairvoyant sales rep, or a sales rep with some other magical powers. Of course, this could simply be the shills editorialization... a handy "out" in case someone from Sprint specifically challenges the lie. :)
> "...I expect the 650 will sell well into next year but don't expect a new PalmOS-based phone, at least from Sprint...."
The shill is now clearly editoralizing his opinions, rather than claiming to be quoting market-moving insights from a magical sprint sales rep. :)
Again, spot the banal and obvious truth: "the Treo 650 will sell well into next year", but carefully note the lie slipped onto the end, "don't expect a new PalmOS-based phone". Again, he doesn't say, "there will not be another PalmOS-based phone", merely that we "should not expect" one. :)
This type of juxtaposition of truth, ambiguity, and lies is essential for the successful shill, and critical when you are trying to build credibility for your lies. :)
All in all, that's some great shilling you "found" there, Surur. I'd give it a 8/10. Please congratulate your colleagues. Much better than your "work". :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Surur
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
The next Treo is running WM and when it comes out the 650 will be over a year old. Whatever Palm says about their OS plans for Treos after that is just talk right now. From the perspective of the operators they are selling Palm OS Treos this year and will be selling more WM Treos next year. Beyond that, they don't know. Any way you slice it that's a move away from Palm toward WM and there's not surprise in it being characterized that way.
But if you think after the enormous success the operators have had and continue to have with the 650 that they've decided not to talk with Palm about future Palm OS Treos then you're a lot more gullible than I usually give you credit.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
the trend is clear. palmos is on its way out and winmob is gaining more and more market share day after day. the apologists lie but the numbers don't. the momentum and inertia can't be stopped. critical mass is almost here - whether you like it or not.
enjoy.
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." - Revelations 6:8
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
it's funny. now new palmos in years, nagel fired, psrc bought out by some no-name foreign company, and palm is now making windows mobile treos.
not too long ago if one predicted these things the apologists would call you a msft shill. ironically today these things are all true yet the apologists deny the obvious outcome. unbelievable.
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Its all about operator buy in. Microsoft must have given one hell of a presentation in 2003, to get the carriers to force Palm to make a WM Treo.
But yes, things are evolving much faster than I ever thought possible, and nothing is certain.
Surur
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
(1) The very existence of the (increasingly desperate) shilling speaks volumes about the non-viability of the wince platform. :)
(2) If wince had "momentum", why is the wince division being rolled into the "entertainment" division? Why are wince engineers apparently being "redeployed" onto "alternative projects"? :)
(3) If wince was growing, why are there so few developers? Why are the devices so huge, ugly, and expensive compared to Palm kit? :)
(4) If wince was doing well, why have wince licensees spent the last year recycling old designs and failing to deliver anything but minor incremental changes? :)
(5) If wince was going to survive, why was Intel demoing an alternative XP Mobile platform on Axim-sized hardware? :)
(6) If wince were a good OS, why is Palm the dominant smartphone platform, even after years of desperate microsoft subsidization of wince licensees? :)
(7) If wince was close to reaching "critical mass", why hasn't it made a single dollar, ever? :)
I could go on... There's just too many questions, geeko. It's obvious, wince is dying. Move on. Start to look for a new job. It's been real, but its over. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
***They didn't know details, but knew that two new Windows phones are coming for Christmas, one with a keyboard, and they were replacing those other keyboard phones (not the Blackberries).***
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800w.jpg
Gekko,
When you start quoting apocalyptic literature, then I really do start to wonder if the end is near!?!
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
not too long ago if one predicted these things the apologists would call you a msft shill. ironically today these things are all true yet the apologists deny the obvious outcome. unbelievable.
You forgot a few things: Sony bailing out, PalmSource selling the right to use the Palm name in future versions of its OS, and Palm OS Cobalt Osborned not once, but twice.
Fortunately you're also as thick as a brick and a year behind in the news. Garnet is indeed dying... and Palm Linux is rising from its ashes. Nagel's departure was a crowning moment of an important house-cleaning at PalmSource. PalmSource was acquired by a company that sells more software than Microsoft and has outstanding connections with practically every mobile device maker on the planet. And its value in today's market was validated by a three-way bidding war. Meanwhile, mobile Linux, still very much in its infancy, has already surpassed Windows Mobile as a smartphone OS.
Where what we now call Palm OS will be two years from now is anyone's guess, but anyone who claims the game is over right now has a lot to learn.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Is that a Cobalt Oswin phone in your pocket, Beersy? Or...
Wow. So Beersy finally admits Cobalt is dead? Stop the press!!!
Fortunately you're also as thick as a brick and a year behind in the news. Garnet is indeed dying... and Palm Linux is rising from its ashes.
Wasn't "the news" in 2003 supposed to be "Garnet is indeed dying... and Cobalt is rising from its ashes"? Now in 2005 Garnet is dying, Cobalt is dead and PalmLinux is rising? So I suppose in 2007 Garnet will STILL be dying ("The winner for most prolonged death scene... Garnet!"), Cobalt will STILL be dead, PalmLinux will be dead and PalmColeco will be rising? Yeah. Right.
Don't count those OSes before they're hatched...
Nagel's departure was a crowning moment of an important house-cleaning at PalmSource.
Nagel was merely a scapegoat. The problems at PalmSource go MUCH deeper than that, as I'm sure you are fully aware, Beersy. Shame on you.
PalmSource was acquired by a company that sells more software than Microsoft and has outstanding connections with practically every mobile device maker on the planet.
Too bad Access sells that precious software for a penny per copy, huh Beersy? Cut the SPIN, Bubba. Carriers would actually LOVE to ditch Access. How long before an Open Source Linux browser obsoletes NetFront? 2 years? It's gotta hurt when a dozen or so high school hackers collaborate over recess to make a better product than your company's CORE business, isn't it?
And its value in today's market was validated by a three-way bidding war.
That "value" was artificially inflated. Ever been to an auction? If Motorola had a clue what they were doing they wouldn't have been running around in circles for the past couple years desperately looking for an OS and therefore wouldn't have been so willing to run the price up.
Meanwhile, mobile Linux, still very much in its infancy, has already surpassed Windows Mobile as a smartphone OS.
Surpassed in what way? Total sales? Reliability? Installed user base? Usefulness to businesses? Features? Also, how are you defining "smartphone? SPIN, Beersy. SPIN.
Where what we now call Palm OS will be two years from now is anyone's guess, but anyone who claims the game is over right now has a lot to learn.
True.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
You complete wad. The market is efficient. Three different companies bidding on an asset do not "artificially inflate" it: rather, the target's shareholders extract a larger share of the proforma synergies identified by the acquirer. :)
I know it's hard for a layman to understand (and a stupid, arrogant layman who does not know his areas of ignorance, in particular), but an M&A asset auction is *not* like going to Sotheby's to buy art. :)
The IB guys and consultants for each bidder determine a valuation for the proforma company based on synergies. The IB guys for the target try to guess this figure. Synergies might include laying off heads from shared services, market-broadening opportunties, cross-selling, channel access, capturing R&D in progress (remember, acquirer capitalize R&D), etc, etc. This is why companies can bid higher than the target's current stock price. No-one bids higher than the synergies they believe they can realize. Of course, they may be wrong. But they are rational. Wad-head. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
tell that to TWX shareholders after the AOL merger, dipshiit.
dummy. if you were any good you'd still be doing it.
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Still be doing what? D.O.'s only 15. :) :) :)
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Was it Nagel who said Cobalt would be good enough to be a laptop OS? Well, he got his wish because the Cobalt Simulator on my laptop is the only place I've been able to run Cobalt.
No matter, it's water under the bridge now.
I don't know where you got the idea that I had some kind of starry-eyed view about a bright Cobalt future since the most I've ever said was that we'd probably see a few straggling phones that were in the pipeline before the Linux announcement last December. When PalmSource announced they were putting all their horses on the Linux wagon, everything I had said previously that kept Cobalt phones from coming out became that much worse: not only would PalmSource not have resources to write proprietary drivers for their proprietary kernel, they might not even have resources for basic support of Cobalt licensees. It's still conceivable that some brave soul is toughing it out to get a Cobalt phone to market, but I suspect they're not happy about it and it's not because of any help they'd be getting from PalmSource.
Re Nagel:
He was more than just a scapegoat, as you yourself have gone to great pains to point out. And he also was just the tip of the iceberg of changes that have taken place at PalmSource. I can't claim to be some big PalmSource insider, but the impression I get and the things I read indicate that it's quite a different place from a couple of years ago. In a good way.
Re Access:
You're the only one spinning here. The facts are that Access is more successful than Microsoft's Windows Mobile division by just about every measure you can think of: not just units sold and number of customers, but also gross revenue and (obviously) profitability. Needless to say, they're also much more impressive than Palm in all these respects.
Access does a lot more than just browsers, but even in that area I've been surprised to find that they've managed to deliver a product that commands a decent premium in the market. Mobile browsers don't look like a commoditized market yet, though Access' move to buy PalmSource would seem to indicate that they see their future in fully integrated platforms, not just browsers.
Re mobile Linux:
TVoR wrote:
[Linux has] surpassed [WM] in what way? Total sales? Reliability? Installed user base?
Yes to all of those.
Usefulness to businesses? Features?
Definitely not. Which is what makes the previous 'yes' so scary to Microsoft and Symbian. What happens when you've got some really powerful, popular and usable middleware riding on top of the Linux kernel and services?
Also, how are you defining "smartphone?
Reasonable question. The 3-to-1 blowout of WM by Linux comes when you do an apples for apples comparison of non-touchscreen smartphones. Basically comparing handsets that run Windows Mobile Smartphone OS with ones like the Motorola E680. If you count PDA phones with touchscreens and styluses Linux doesn't yet have much of a presence so it looks like they're both in the neighborhood of 15% of that smartphone market. As Surer has been complaining, we don't really have a good breakdown of the recent market by OS and the various analysts all seem to slice up the device categories differently so it's hard to say this with any precision. What we know for sure is that Linux adoption has been growing much faster than Windows Mobile or anyone else in this arena. Look at Motorola's pronounced shift to Linux in the last year and the 1000% (that's one thousand percent) growth their phones experienced year-on-year and you get the picture.
Obviously Microsoft is going to have a hit on their hands with the WM Treo (or maybe we shouldn't count that chick before it hatches?). So it will interesting to see if they are able to catch the tail of the Linux tiger next year.
Re rebranded Palm OS for Linux:
We'll just have to see, won't we? I'm glad you agree that the game is not over.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
What has encouraged me recently that WM continues to be on the up and up, despite the continuing huge gains by Symbian and the surging growth of Linux, has been the increasing number of asian OEMs/ODM's launching WM devices. The far east, and especially china, has always been thought of as the next big market, the one that it really matters to penetrate, and the one that will almost certainly go to Linux.
Since I last produced a list of recently anounced WM devices, at least another 4-5 have been anounced or leaked, meaning its quite possible more WM phones have been anounced than Nokia (not symbian) phones.
Also encouraging recently was the release of the Sharp WM phone in Japan, which has traditionally been a closed shop to American OS's.
Lastly WM seems to be getting significant carrier buy-in, which is obviously the most important factor, as if the carriers dont offer the devices 99% of the people wont buy it.
The fact is that Access cant wave a magic wand and take over the market when their PalmLinux is ready. Yes, they will have a competitive offering, but the market already seems crowded, and their platform is no more compelling than any other out there at the moment, and may be slightly behind by the time it reaches market.
I lament that fact that recent Canalys data did not break things down by OS, which at least to me means I cant see a clear trend currently (except that RIM and Nokia will continue to do well) but the above mentioned indicators signify to me at least that 2006 could be the breakout year for WM, whereas POSLinux would probably not even be ready to enter the market then.
Surur
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
The trend is clear, you're screwed.
I'm screwed? Buddy, my company already has all bases covered--Palm, Windows, Symbian, Linux, Crackberry, J2ME--so we're ready for anything.
But thanks for reading my post and providing such thoughtful counter-analysis and facts! :)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Coolest phone EVER! (and its WM)
This is only marginally on topic (that Asian WM ODM's can challange Nokia in releasing many and cool phones) but the above device is the coolest looking phone ever, and it finally does media playing right!
Surur
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Sure. There are some points I want to say on this but they'll have to wait until tonight. Very busy day today.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Coolest phone EVER! (and its WM)
http://www.bostonpda.org/siteimages/newton_phone.jpg
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
The difference is that its real (I hope). Its got me very excited, as I would never buy a nano (too limiting) but I would definitely get one of these as a second device (I love my VGA Loox too much t give it up). This could take pda's consumer.
Anyways, the ipod is white, while everyone knows black is in these days ;)
Surur
RE: Coolest phone EVER! (and its WM)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Hey, don't come whining to the IB guys if shareholders vote in some dip**** directors, who appoint stupid management, who utterly fail to execute on a deal. :)
> "...dummy. if you were any good you'd still be doing it..."
Shoot me first. It's a lifestyle thing. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
LOL @ a guy who spends his weekends on PIC begging for attention having a 'lifestyle'.
Anti-Stupidity Activist
I think of myself more as being an anti-stupidity activist. People like you are going to keep me busy for a long time. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
Don't let it interfere with your paper round.
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
That sensation is not irony, it is frustration at being repeatedly corrected. :)
By the way, how much longer does the wince division have? I'm guessing many of the engineers are already "repurposed" at this stage? :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
That sensation is not irony, it is frustration at being repeatedly corrected. :)
:)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Try again, Beersy. And why have you forsaken Diva Dianne???
Re Cobalt:
Was it Nagel who said Cobalt would be good enough to be a laptop OS? Well, he got his wish because the Cobalt Simulator on my laptop is the only place I've been able to run Cobalt.
Just because PalmSource's egregious OS blunders might ultimately (severely) hurt your income is no excuse for you getting all snippy like that, Beersy. Where's the love (or should I say snivelling) you showed when you tried to come to the rescue of PalmSource diva, Dianne Hackborn a few months back? Lately you've been sounding more and more like you don't really care if PalmOS goes down for the count. Are you preparing yourself for something? Have you been dropping the soap in Mr. Gates' shower recently? Shame on you. What ever happened to loyalty and the concept of "going down with the ship"?
No matter, it's water under the bridge now.
How generous of you.
I don't know where you got the idea that I had some kind of starry-eyed view about a bright Cobalt future since the most I've ever said was that we'd probably see a few straggling phones that were in the pipeline before the Linux announcement last December.
I must have you confused with ANOTHER Beersy.
When PalmSource announced they were putting all their horses on the Linux wagon, everything I had said previously that kept Cobalt phones from coming out became that much worse: not only would PalmSource not have resources to write proprietary drivers for their proprietary kernel, they might not even have resources for basic support of Cobalt licensees. It's still conceivable that some brave soul is toughing it out to get a Cobalt phone to market, but I suspect they're not happy about it and it's not because of any help they'd be getting from PalmSource.
Cobalt is DEAD, Beersy. Feel free to chant, "Arise Zombie!" as much as you want, but it's time you achieved closure with your precious Cobalt. Yes, I know - PalmSource lied to you and wasted your time. Yes, I understand they hurt you. But don't worry - PalmLinux will make EVERYTHING better. EVERYTHING. Who knows, you might even stop dressing like Elmer Fudd...
Re Nagel:
He was more than just a scapegoat, as you yourself have gone to great pains to point out. And he also was just the tip of the iceberg of changes that have taken place at PalmSource. I can't claim to be some big PalmSource insider, but the impression I get and the things I read indicate that it's quite a different place from a couple of years ago. In a good way.
Nagel's (main) mistake was clinging to the Old Way far too long and being clueless about the cellphone industry. But as far as I know he did not (I repeat, NOT) club baby seals.
Re Access:
You're the only one spinning here. The facts are that Access is more successful than Microsoft's Windows Mobile division by just about every measure you can think of: not just units sold and number of customers, but also gross revenue and (obviously) profitability. Needless to say, they're also much more impressive than Palm in all these respects.
Cut the B.S., Bubba. Windows Mobile is not about the profitability of Windows Mobile. Think of it as a loss leader. Only a dullard would not understand that for Microsoft, Windows Mobile is about offering a product to keep the sheep from straying to another field. Do you think Microsoft will care if they barely break even on Windows Mobile if its existence:
a) Kills Palm + stunts Linux and Symbian
b) Sells them thousands of licenses to Exchange Server
c) Sells them hundreds of thousands of licenses of other applications
d) Prevents people from even thinking about using non-Microsoft OSes/apps
e) Acts as advertising for Microsoft (millions of people carrying phones that are labelled as being "Powered by Windows" is advertising that's usually hard to buy)
Access does a lot more than just browsers, but even in that area I've been surprised to find that they've managed to deliver a product that commands a decent premium in the market. Mobile browsers don't look like a commoditized market yet, though Access' move to buy PalmSource would seem to indicate that they see their future in fully integrated platforms, not just browsers.
Beersy, look at the power of current and upcoming mobile hardware. Look at the execution of current versions of mobile Opera. Look at what Firefox has done in a brief period of time. Do you really think hardware manufacturers will be willing to pay for NetFront for much longer? Would you like to buy a bridge I'm selling near San Francisco?
What happens when you've got some really powerful, popular and usable middleware riding on top of the Linux kernel and services?
Well if it takes a long time to market or it's mismanaged, the same thing will happen to it as did Copeland, BeOS, OS/2, Amiga, etc. Sometimes good guys finish LAST.
>>>Also, how are you defining "smartphone?
Reasonable question. The 3-to-1 blowout of WM by Linux comes when you do an apples for apples comparison of non-touchscreen smartphones. Basically comparing handsets that run Windows Mobile Smartphone OS with ones like the Motorola E680. If you count PDA phones with touchscreens and styluses Linux doesn't yet have much of a presence so it looks like they're both in the neighborhood of 15% of that smartphone market. As Surer has been complaining, we don't really have a good breakdown of the recent market by OS and the various analysts all seem to slice up the device categories differently so it's hard to say this with any precision. What we know for sure is that Linux adoption has been growing much faster than Windows Mobile or anyone else in this arena. Look at Motorola's pronounced shift to Linux in the last year and the 1000% (that's one thousand percent) growth their phones experienced year-on-year and you get the picture.
Your crystal ball is getting cloudy, Swami...
Obviously Microsoft is going to have a hit on their hands with the WM Treo (or maybe we shouldn't count that chick before it hatches?). So it will interesting to see if they are able to catch the tail of the Linux tiger next year.
MY crystal ball predicts MASSIVE business sales of the Windows Mobile Treo, more developer defections from PalmOS, leading to a death spiral for PalmOS. PalmLinux will still be sleeping (in development) in 2006. If Palm tried to put a buggy beta PalmLinux into a flagship PDA, they will get mauled by that tiger.
Re rebranded Palm OS for Linux:
We'll just have to see, won't we? I'm glad you agree that the game is not over.
The game is NEVER over. Smart companies always run scared, aware that competitors are always trying to build a better mousetrap.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Vicious POS Treo rumors
POS Treo 700p May 2006, $200 Treo end fiscal 2006
Kalla, who rates Palm at "buy," noted that the Windows Treo, with an EVDO radio function, should be in Verizon Wireless stores by the end of the fiscal third quarter ending February. Verizon Wireless, a joint venture of Verizon Communications (nyse: VZ - news - people ) and Vodafone (nyse: VOD - news - people ), is the exclusive distributor for the product through mid-2006.The replacement for the Treo 650, also with an EVDO radio, will ship in fiscal fourth quarter ending May to Verizon Wireless and also probably to Sprint Nextel (nyse: S - news - people ), Kalla said. A version with a UMTS radio could ship to Cingular Wireless, likely closer to the end of the year. "We had previously thought the product would ship in the third quarter, but believe Palm delayed it so it can concentrate on the Windows Treo release." Cingular is a joint venture of SBC Communications (nyse: SBC - news - people ) and BellSouth (nyse: BLS - news - people ).
Palm will also launch a line of mid-market Treos, with ASPs of about $200, later in fiscal 2006.
Surur
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