Comments on: Mace's Thoughts on the ALP Announcement
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RE: First ALP devices in Asia
Palm will they really begin pushing WinMob after Dell cuts the Axim down to a few models (or less) and HP basically decides throws in the towel and just offers a few token iPaqs (differentiated only by RAM & the occasional OS update).
I predict Palm will try to continue with an assortment of high-end Treos running WinMob, one or two low/midrange POS Treos plus a few legacy POS PDAs. In theory, that's not a half-bad battle plan for the next 18months or so. Garnet can conceivably continue along ad infinitum in <$100 PDAs because there's ALWAYS a market for blister-packed basic organizers, especially ones that have color screens and can play MP3s.
Eventual economies of scale could enable Palm to sell something like a $60 Z22 or a cut-rate T|E2 for $100, ensuring that "Palm Operating System" survives in SOME manner through '08 or '09 or so.
Mace's article was surprisingly brutal in its honesty and openness. It's what I'd have hoped to see in a "PIC Exclusive, no holds barred" Q&A session but he went ahead and gave us some of the juicy bits himself! I preferred this piece to his "What went wrong with the LifeDrive" commentary from a few weeks back.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
Palm is planning their devices for 2007 right now. Given what we know of ALP, its almost certain these devices will not run it.
The question is therefore, what will the features of these new devices be, what OS will the carriers demand, and what OS will they have to run to give them those features?
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
You're such an annoying droid. How much do you get paid to invent this FUD??? :)
> "...Mace's article was surprisingly brutal in its honesty and openness..."
Err... no. :)
It was surprising flawed in really obvious ways. Like, of course Palm isn't committing to the platform before it launches.
Duh. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
The carriers demand Treos. They really prefer for them to run WinMob if at all possible--prior to Jan 2006 this was not possible so that'd take whatever flavor of FrankenGarnet was offered. Once the Verizon exclusivity period expires, expect for them to start requesting & standardizing on a single OS for their smartphones--and it ain't gonna be POS (at least not in the domestic CDMA market).
The Treo 650 has lasted 18 months and counting. If they release a 700p midyear '06 (say, June/July) you have to plan on it having a reasonably similar lifespan. That would EOL it around the end of CY '07 or a bit sooner if the carriers just want to dump it outright. Intentionally "crippling" the 700p with 64mb RAM now would also give Palm enough wiggle room in '07 to issue a mildly refreshed version of it with, say, 128mb RAM and a bigger battery if ALP falls behind schedule and Palm needs to buy themselves another 6-9 months.
So plan on the 700p and the Lowrider (a more stylish Treo 600 with NVFS basically) carrying the POS Treo torch through the end of next year when ALP ships OR when the carriers dump 'em--whichever comes first. Then you can always pencil in a mildly refreshed Garnet 5.9 Treo if Access gets behind schedule as I stated above. All of the other forthcoming Treos through fall '07 will run WinMob.
PDA releases will still ride on Garnet at last through mid '07-look for Palm to flog those devices as long as possible in order to maximize investment in a fading platform. Once the whole PDA line is "Palm" branded again, that'll pretty much stick a fork in any additional PDA R&D spending, at least under this generation of POS.
So, for 2nd half '06/1st half '07: three POS PDAs, two POS Treos, three WinMob Treos. There you go.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
Palm said they are upping their rate of device release. I do not expect their 2006 devices to last > 12 months. I certainly hope the Treo 700w gets improved (especially via RAM and WIFI) within 12 months.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
Can you find an article to cite or an interview where they said this? Sounds like welcome news to me!
I personally would advocate a 3-tier release cycle;
spring for handhelds, mid-summer for mild product refreshes in all categories & fall for Treos.
Anything more than that would be too intensive for a small/economizing company like Palm. Retailers also prefer to bring out new stuff in "chunks"...of course, Palm doesn't have that many retail partners left (CUSA, Omax, OD, Staples are the biggies--CC & BB have pretty much thrown in the towel for PDAs)
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
Actually, looking at the F2Q06 conference call, it looks like you are right. It looks like they are setting themselves up this year for the next 24 months, and expect these products to last a long time in the market.
The expected sequential increase in R&D spending of between 6.5 and 7.5 million is primarily due to the timing of prototype and other non-recurring engineering costs associated with the, excuse me, the development of smartphone products built on two distinct operating systems and aimed at different segments of the market. As Ed had mentioned earlier, we expect to launch four new smartphones in the next 12 months, delivering on our commitment of offering a family of smartphones as we exit calendar 2006. At this point in time we expect a lower level of R&D spending in the fourth quarter of fiscal ‘06, declining sequentially by 1.5 to 2 million.
http://cestockblog.com/article/5274
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
HKK, you're dreaming. I hope your dream comes true, but your still dreaming. Palm OS died the day they spun off the OS. I had a bad feeling about it then, but it's coming home to roost now. Looks like ALPOs is going to try and be a bridge for the dwindling fanbase. Palm OS as we know it looks to be dead.
I hope I'm wrong, but have the bad gut feeling I'm not. Clean up your Tungstens and hope the museum will buy it in 10 years. I'm personally going to see how long my Treo 800g will hold out.
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: First ALP devices in Asia
No, that was not a dream but rather a hallucination. It's actually YOU and your 800g in my real dreams ;-)
All of those Tungstens are long since sold or in a landfill somewhere. I still have a terrific collection for historical of a Pilot 1000 (with packaging & all box contents!), PalmPilot Pro with upgrade card, and an m100. Unfortunately those aren't the handiest things for modern PDA applications. I may just buy another cheap TX or two and stash 'em away. I figure I can get a year and change out of each one at minimum.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
Has or Will
From BlogTo help make this happen, Access has released some Palm OS code to the open source community,
Has released, or will release? If Has released, then where?
RE: Has or Will
Mace's Thoughts on ALP
> "...The [...] absence of other operators. Orange in the UK has historically been a strong Treo supporter, [and] where the heck is Sprint, the original champion of the Treo? [And] Cingular, which has lately been one of the biggest Treo endorsers? I think their absence is not a good sign..."
Wrong. Orange, Treo, Sprint and Cingular don't give a toss about operating systems. Their suppliers are people who make phones. Sprint will vouch for the next generation Treo, because it's made by Palm, no matter what OS it runs. Moron. :)
> "...But my biggest question was, where are the licensees? [...] Given all the work that Palm has been doing to reassure its Palm OS-using customers, I was very surprised that there wasn't a quote from them in the press release. [...] But I'm wondering if there might also be business issues. ..."
Idiot. Palm and ACCESS are different companies. There is no way that Palm would make a committment to the ACCESS platform at this stage unless they are guaranteed preferential pricing. Any committment to the ALP platform before pricing negotiations essentialy eliminates any bargaining power Palm has.
Palm should not commit to pricing until a final quality build is available. Anything else could actually disincent ACCESS to deliver a top quality product.
All this proves is that ACCESS are not prepared to offer Palm et al preferential pricing at this stage. ACCESS are a wealthy company, not a startup: no need to offer preferential pricing.
I can see why this guy is a "Former Chief Competitive Officer" as opposed to an actual "Chief Competitive Officer"...
Duh. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
What does this mean? "The guy is throwing inuendo around for his own personal reasons."
Why can't you disagree without calling him an idiot? I think we're more likely to have a good debate if we use a civil tone.
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
It's a good idea to do what others have done earlier on this thread and simply ignore him; he'll soon hang himself with his own noose.
He certainly can't use the excuse that TVoR has been abusive to him or that others have been abusive to him earlier in this thread.
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
RE: Quibbling. :)
If either of my points are logically wrong, point out why... don't whine about my offensive lack of tact.
Mike clearly has an agenda, because he is an industry professional with marketing experience, and it is inconceivable that he didn't understand about Palm's bargaining position regarding committing to licensing, or the irrelevance of operating systems to cellular network providers. Could anyone seriously imagine Sprint saying "wow, ALP rocks," when Palm has not yet committed to the platform?
I mean, duh. :)
This whole board is just random opinion pieces: Voice-of-Dumbness got burned on palm stock, and he believes he can single-handedly bring palm down with FUD to punish those who have long since profited and gone. Surur and Adama are unashamedly paid by microsoft. Hklife... who the hell knows? I think he's an alien or something.
Me? I just don't suffer fools gladly. :)
OK. No more moron-calling. I'll give it up for lent. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Flaunting one's lack of self-discipline in public is even worse than being a paid shill. :)
> "...Carriers do care about OS, if for no other reason then the fact that they're the first line of tech support..."
In the nicest possible way, your point is completely tangential and irrelevant.
Does anyone really imagine that Sprint was going to recommend a phone OS that isn't finished yet and may or may not make it onto a device on the Sprint network one day? The notion is absurd. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: I hate it when that happens. :)
I hate it when that happens. :)
My points are valid, however: no comment by carriers or Palm is *not* remotely surprising ahead of licensing negotiations. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
I don't think it's a "stupid article". I disagree with much of it, but it's not "stupid". And, as someone who worked with Mike for a number of years, both at Apple and at Palm/PalmSource, I'm pretty confident that he doesn't have a particular "agenda"; I can say with certainty that he's not "a moron".
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Thanks, Doc, that's very gracious of you. Apology accepted.
>I guess he's being deliberately controversial to drive traffic over to Rubicon,
Nope. We're well stocked with work at the moment. I was just saying what I think.
Mike
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
"...I disagree with much of it..."
Which parts? He seemed to make a lot of sense.
This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Having the support of the java community and international carriers is nice, but in the end, what will they release the OS on? The whole OS is nothing without hardware to run it and the point was, they didn't provide any major hardware companies as vocal supporters of their OS.
At the start Mike mentioned that this whole release was part of a posturing and to instill public acceptance or something like that. It appeared to work on you.
Sometimes silence speaks volumes.
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Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
Dr Opinion's opinion on Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Should'nt that have been the changed title? Also I wonder what D.O.'s opinion of ALP is (or is he trying to preserve his bargaining position too ?)
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: Mace's Thoughts on ALP
Obviously a linux core will be deliver more stability, performance, and application compatability than wince and mobile Vista. This is extremely compelling, especially to carriers who are probably getting pretty sick of dealing with wince-related bugs and usability issues lately. While it is common knowledge that most of the wince team at microsoft were transferred to X-box related activities, and we know that wince has no more than twelve months left before being officially EOLed, microsoft really should act as if it gives just a little bit of a damn about the suckers^h^h^h^h^h users who bought wince devices at this late stage. :)
ALP is not Palm OS, but may deliver the continuity many Palm OS users are hoping for.
Linux is an excellent OS kernel. A feature-rich, standard mobile OS that is completely open at the kernel/driver level will be a huge boon to hackers and hardware people. We know that Cobalt died becuase no-one wanted to incur the cost of developing the hardware drivers for it, but many hardware firms routinely distribute linux drivers with source as a matter of course.
A linux core could allow ALP to run on any hardware, from phone to PDA to tablet to PC. This might be cool. :)
Beyond that, who knows. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
A question
Just a question:
How is Access's strategy of taking a desktop OS and shoehorning it into a mobile device different than Microsoft's strategy with the Palm Sized PC circa 1998?
This statement:
While it is common knowledge that most of the wince team at microsoft were transferred to X-box related activities, and we know that wince has no more than twelve months left before being officially EOLed, microsoft really should act as if it gives just a little bit of a damn about the suckers^h^h^h^h^h users who bought wince devices at this late stage. :)
Is breathtaking in it's scope and foolishness. Reminds me of Bahgdad Bob saying "There are no infdel tanks in Iraq" when they were parked outside the hotel.
Jedi Council
Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present
RE: Jedi Council
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
RE: Jedi Council
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treosith.jpg
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
It's undeniable that there was an inadequate understanding between PalmSource and device manufacturers over what could be provided by Cobalt and what was desired by Palm and other licencees.
I am left with the impression that ACCESS is cobbling together Linux together with bits from NetFront and Palm OS without asking the device manufacturers what they will like to see an OS do for their devices. I have a fear that the same mistakes made with Cobalt may be made with ALP.
"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
This impression would be inaccurate.
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
It leads me to ask which group have the greatest influence on the creation of a smartphone OS:
- the end user "I'd like my smartphone to do this"
- the manufacturers "We'd like to make a device that does this"
- the carriers "We'd like our customers to have this feature"
- the OS writer? "the manufacturers will love our OS when they see it does this"
I say it again, it's evident that Cobalt failed to meet the needs and desires of the device manufacturers, it'll be good to know what effort is being made with ALP so that it's desirable enough to be purchased by the device manufacturers.
So far only one manufacturer, Samsung, has left the strongest of hints by suggesting they are looking closely at ALP's potential. Other relevant parties have simply said, yes, ALP looks like a good idea; yet nobody has committed themselves to using the final product when it's ready! It's painfully notable that Palm hasn't made any comment on ALP, despite its legacy with the Palm OS.
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
Take your pick.
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
42
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Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
Take your pick.
An ambigous, even evasive, answer.
Nevertheless I reiterate that there must have been a failure of understanding of the device manufacturer's needs for PalmSource to offer a mobile OS which, to date, no manufacturer is interested in using. Palmsource failed to comprehend its licencees' needs during the effort to make Cobalt what it was.
Therefore, I hope that Access is taking a different approach to potential customers of its operating system, that it understands why the manufacturers rejected Cobalt and from that it is able to offer a mobile OS more appealing to the manufacturers than Cobalt.
The most troubling fact is that Palm, PalmSource's largest source of licence fee revenue, has not (at least not in public) expressed any interest in the ALP.
At present, it appears that ALP is no more appealing to Palm than Cobalt and look at what's happened to Cobalt.
"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
But it's also true that silence is not dissent.
The only way to know what Palm thinks of ALP is to ask Palm and have them reply.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
It was in response to a poorly-framed statement.
RE: Has anyone asked the Device Manufacturers?
in response to a poorly-framed statement.
To clarify:
- did Access have extensive consultations with the device manufacturers before the decision was made to create ALP?
- if Access had consulted, was the decision to use Linux, elements of the Palm OS and Netfront in ALP made as a result of these consultations?
Critique
There isn't a "Linux community". Rather, there are at least three Linux communities, and only one of them matters to Access -- and it's not the one that posts in slashdot or reads Ars Technica.
The OSDL quote helps to legitimize Access in the Linux community
The first two Linux communities, on the other hand, don't grant legitimacy to Linux distributions based on quotes, no matter the source.
quotes from companies like these are helpful because they reassure potential licensees that a lot of components will be available for phones based on the software.
Um, no. Quotes like these (comments from hardware vendors) mean nothing to the licensess. Commitments to provide software support to go with the hardware would mean what Mace suggested.
There's no quote from Monta Vista. That's kind of spooky,
Um, no. MontaVista has had their falling out with TrollTech, so ALP is a direct competitor to Mobilinux. They'd hardly line up to endorse it at this point. (P.S. mvista spells their name without a space. It's "MontaVista Software".)
You use the SDK to write applications, but you need the PDK (product development kit) to actually develop a device.
Access missed a chance to clarify something there. For ALP, you need Linux running on your device to develop for ALP. Linux is an open source operating system, so you can do your own port -- which you'll pretty much have to do anyway -- and then use the SDK. The old PalmOS SDK/PDK kit model doesn't fit Linux development all that closely.
So here's the critique. Mace's topic statement was we should probably stop thinking of this thing as the successor to Palm OS, and instead judge it as a new mobile OS based on Linux. Here's why... but the essay does not make a case to establish why. Rather, it makes an attempt to guess what the press quotes meant, and doesn't even mention any of the ways in which ALP is similar to or different than PalmOS.
By the way, for the geeks in the crowd, ALP is anything but "a new mobile OS". To be pedantic, it is another Linux variant, among many. In "the Linux community", it would be called a new Linux distribution.
May You Live in Interesting Times
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First ALP devices in Asia
Will ALP ever come to USA? If ALP is a whole new OS, what makes it different than all the other competitors for the crown, while being 5 years behind everybody else? Why would Palm Inc buy in some asian OS with very little connection to the old POS? Just out of nostalgia?
According to David S, Max is built on Rome, the smartphone UI framework, vs the more PDA centric Treo. Somehow I dont think ALP will even be very attractive to old-time POS users.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...