Comments on: PCMag Editorial: Palm's Future is Not Rosy

> ...The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they
> wouldn't still be buying these things...

Look for sell-through numbers on October 1 and sometime in December or January.

Beersie;

You bring up some good point and ones that I've kinda/sorta echoed here recently as well. No matter how many Garter study results I read, message boards I peruse, or editorial pieces from PC Mag or Walt Mossberg I read, I find that "real world" observations tend to give drastically different results.

I personally have just seen a handful of iPhones out in the wild *EXCEPT* when work briefly brought me into contact on two separate occasions with different groups of high-flying, west coast advertising/media types. Almost every single one of 'em was toting an iPhone, a MacBook Pro and a small Canon/Nikon digicam. Yet I never seem to see iPhones in airports, train stations, waiting rooms and building lobbies.

I see tons upon tons upon tons of BlackBerries, yes. Everyone I know has either a BB (mostly the Pearl, 8700, or even 7100 & older models) And I see a heap of older Treo 600s/650s, usually carried by "roadwarrior" sales force or middle management types. I actually saw more Q's a year ago than I've seen lately and know of at least 3 former Q owners who ditched them in favor of Treos or BBs. I've only seen maybe one or two BlackJacks out and about and an impossible to determine assortment of "other" WM-based devices (mostly Samsung or HTCs).

Heck, I know of 3 users (all female, ironically) who use their BBs *ONLY* as dumbphones without ever even trying to learn to use the address book, calendar, web browser or e-mail. They just bought them "because of the big screen" and because all of their coworkers had 'em.

Everyone I've ever struck up a conversation with about their Treos has complained bitterly about its performance as a telephone as well as the battery life. I think everyone I know with a Treo keeps it cranked up at maximum brightness as well (those aging eyes again...).

If I made a list of my top, say, 10 Treo grievences, I figure only half of my wants would also be found on the "average" user's wishlist.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

i see lots of people i knew as treo users all switching to BB. lots of companies doing the same thing. treo is cheaper up front vs. BB, but too many support issues is the hidden expense of the treo. many companies switching to BB.

But still...
Palm's Treos were once the gold standard for usability and flexibility.
Still are. Despite the crashes and Garnet's ugliness...

Source?

Now, the latest BlackBerries play video and run hundreds of applications;
And as many have noted, have absolutely terrible interfaces for anything other than email.

Personal Preference?

the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

There are third party "hacks" apps out there.

Nokia is showing how much multimedia power can fit into a phone-centric device;
But like RIM, the interface stinks.

Again a personal Preference.

Look, we all know that Palm's lagging behind the industry on the hardware front. But I am very tired of people holding up other company's devices as the examples to be striving for. More often than not, they have their own glaring flaws, but they get ignored because hey, they're new! The tech industry's obsession with shiny newness bugs me.
It's called innovation.

All I know is that the Treo still serves my needs from a mobile device a heck of a lot better than the competition does. The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they wouldn't still be buying these things and Palm would be dead already.

People still buy VCR's

I am totally agreed with the idea that Palm need to publish their deadlines though. They need to stop being so secretive. We need monthly or even better weekly updates on how the new OS is going. We need concept sketches of future handhelds. We need to hear more from people who work on tech issues within the company. All that might start to bring people around again. But right now the prevailing image is one of a company spinning their wheels. That's what needs to be fixed.

Totally Agree on this.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

>>Palm's Treos were once the gold standard for usability and flexibility.
>Still are. Despite the crashes and Garnet's ugliness...

Freak, For once I decided to take you at your word and consult a dictionary:

1. usability - The effectiveness, efficiency, and satisfaction with which users can achieve tasks in a particular
environment of a product. High usability means a system is: easy to learn and remember; efficient, visually
pleasing and fun to use; and quick to recover from errors.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Palm OS crashes, antiquated UI design is not indicative of usability.

2. flexibility - The quality of being easily adaptable or responsive to change.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Palm OS inability to utilize higher resolution screen displays, lacking true multitasking, inability to utilize large amounts of built-in internal memory all point to a lack of flexibility.

It's 2007 - time to face the fact that Palm OS is the gold standard in outdated software architecture. It's called FrankenGarnet for a reason!

>>Now, the latest BlackBerries play video and run hundreds of applications;
>And as many have noted, have absolutely terrible interfaces for anything other than email.

Who are these "many"? I've seen more people using the latest blackberries than I see people using the Treo. For something with an allegedly "terrible interface" people love them.

>>the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
>Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

More misinformation freak? I've downloaded and installed several third party apps. for my iphone - they're not sanctioned by Apple, but they exist and there's not a whole lot Apple can do to stop them. Apple does support third party Web 2.0 apps. for the iphone. Your blanket statement is inaccurate and wrong.

>>Nokia is showing how much multimedia power can fit into a phone-centric device;
>But like RIM, the interface stinks.

More opinion without a basis in fact. Sources??

>>and Windows Mobile integrates beautifully with the Microsoft universe. Yes, Palm makes Windows Mobile
>>devices, but their Windows Mobile Treos are halfhearted, chunky, and expensive compared to models
>>produced by companies like HTC.

>That's pushing it. The Treo 750 received near-universal praise as one of the best WinMob phones available.

Still, that doesn't invalidate the original statement - Palm OS devices tend to be more expensive, more clunky and less slick.

>Look, we all know that Palm's lagging behind the industry on the hardware front.

Yes, but Palm is lagging moreso with their stale UI and antiquated OS.

>But I am very tired of people holding up other company's devices as the examples to be striving for.

Other companies are striving - Palm is stagnating and has demonstrated a long-standing inability to execute.

>More often than not, they have their own glaring flaws, but they get ignored because hey, they're new! The
>tech industry's obsession with shiny newness bugs me.

You like familiarity - others appreciate innovation. No product is perfect, however most people would rather put money behind products that are being improved and innovated upon than products which are stale rehashes of past glories.

Palm has not been innovative in a very long time.

Anytime they have something remotely innovative (LifeDrive, Foleo) they kill them and/or don't develop them to their full potential. With some work, LifeDrive could have evolved into an ipod touch.

The past few years Palm has been rehashing the same old hardware and software. "Lipstick on a pig" is the comment I see frequently on these boards.

>All I know is that the Treo still serves my needs from a mobile device a heck of a lot better than the
>competition does. The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they wouldn't still be
>buying these things and Palm would be dead already.

Let's see what Palm's sales are when they announce their quarterly numbers.

>I am totally agreed with the idea that Palm need to publish their deadlines though. They need to stop being
>so secretive. We need monthly or even better weekly updates on how the new OS is going. We need concept
>sketches of future handhelds. We need to hear more from people who work on tech issues within the
>company. All that might start to bring people around again. But right now the prevailing image is one of a
>company spinning their wheels. That's what needs to be fixed.

Palm could publish a million deadlines, but it won't make a difference. Neither consumers nor the tech industry are going to give Palm a free pass - at this point they need to execute.

Palm has squandered many opportunities - there aren't many more left. At some point, it will be too late for Palm - it may already be too late.

Sorry, jca666us, did you say something? I accidentally scrolled straight past as soon as I saw your handle.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of "hundreds" of other phones that have hardware mute switches.

PacManFoo:
On the other hand Apple constantly updates and fixes when necessary their software. That brings up another point.

You're right, it does. When Apple update their software, what happens to all those hacks? Ooops! Broken again until they're re-hacked:

http://tinyurl.com/2zuysf

Ouch, that was fast. Apple didn't seem to want to let get around that its got a completely neutral stance on 3rd party application development for the iPhone, and apparently got back with Gearlog to clarify that future iPhone "software updates will most likely break" 3rd party app compatibility. Not ignore, not possibly break -- most likely break. In other words, don't set your hopes too high that the NES games you're enjoying on your iPhone today will be around tomorrow, since it sounds like Apple won't be playing Switzerland after all.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

"Yet I never seem to see iPhones in airports, train stations, waiting rooms and building lobbies."

There is an obvious reason the iPhone is not seen in most of these places...IT CANNOT BE USED AS A BUSINESS UNIT. I don't hear much talk about this fact. Of all the many truths about the iPhone, how can people ignore that the OFFICIAL policy of ATT/Apple is that you CANNOT use the iPhone on an ATT business account phone number. Of course there is a reason why this policy exists... :)

DateBk, DailyReader, Diet Assistant, iSilo, KDIC, mobileClock, MyBible, MetrO, Quizzler, SlovoEd, TCPMP, BackupMan (I suppose that's not "needed" on a device that has no removable memory!), SecureIt, Unit Converter Pro (believe it or not, UCP gets used a lot!)

Again, that doesn't count any games (I'm not "big" into games anyway) or system utilities like CardExportII (should have been built in), Thumbboard, DALauncher, Keyboard, PalmRevolt, ZLauncher (maybe this should be considered an app with all of the functionality it offers), or "less often" used apps like PalmPDF, GoogleMaps, CardTXT, HandZipper, etc.

I have complained bitterly about much of what Palm has done in recent years. I am very disappointed in my TX hardware quality. I'm frustrated that they scrimped on things like no mic, LED or vibrating alarm. And if they aren't going to offer a decent PDA upgrade, then at least they could offer something other than the "standard" Treo for me to switch to.

But some of those third-party apps I mentioned above would be very difficult to live without at this point. At the moment I have no assurance that Apple will "allow" the iPhone/iPod Touch to become a device that I can work with. I really hope that they do. At least then I'd have another option. Who knows, maybe Access can deliver or even one of the other smartphone makers. But if somehow all of this forces me to a WinMob device, you can be assured it won't be a Palm branded.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

The iPod Touch does not even have a microphone. Its an iPod, not a PDA.

Surur

The iPod Touch does not even have a microphone. Its an iPod, not a PDA.

My TX doesn't have a microphone either. So what the heck is it?

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

>BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of "hundreds" of other phones that have hardware
>mute switches.

Go and search on verizon's or sprint's web site.

You're the one who imagines they're a journalist. Try investigating and you'll see that you're wrong.

You're grasping for straws when you say Palm innovated by putting in a switch to turn off the ringer on the phone! Hahahaha!!!

>You're right, it does. When Apple update their software, what happens to all those
>hacks? Ooops! Broken again until they're re-hacked

FREAK - What happens when Palm updates their OS and they break all of those apps?

Oh that's right? Palm doesn't update their OS. Stay stuck in the past FREAK!

Unfortunately Palm fumbled the ball there too. They licensed Windows Mobile and built lackluster hardware around it. The Treo 750 is a fat brick, and a whole lot of nothing in your pocket.

Yeah, totally. Except for the portable 3G broadband modem, touchscreen and decent battery life compared to comparable thinner devices. (Why does the Blackjack come with a spare battery in the box?)

^^ K, name them. Oh, and do those larger screen ones have a full, exposed QWERTY board?

OMG!

I would never have suspected they were so far behind. Why waste your money doing it at all then?

Surur

I've been saying this since the foleo disaster, there is no way palm is going to get a palm linux device out next year. In fact, I don't even see the need for it. They should just go WM on high end and low end, and stay with garnet on low end...

What makes you think this decision is for Palm to make? We're talking about a mobile phone operating system here. The carriers are the customers and they create the requirements. Last I checked, things weren't going particularly well with Garnet OS on some major carriers like Sprint and Verizon.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

"Gee...and you are the one who says PALM's going to put PalmOS on top of Linux in their PHONES!?
Hmmm..."

That was back when I believed that they had the talent to do it and the momentum w/ the treo 600 and 650 to draw talented developers.

3 years of stagnation and a corporate business plan that changes with the blowing of the wind changes my mind.

The time it will take for them to get a ROI for the development of a OS at this point will be too long for them to even take the risk (because as we know, even if they develop it doesn't mean they can use it.)

Palm has failed to make TWO new OSes.

"What makes you think this decision is for Palm to make?"

Your right, the decision is not palms but EPs, just like the foleo decision was EPs. Looks like with EP comes some financial accountability. The carriers argument is tired. Take a look at the numbers now 50% of devices are WM palm ships. . . Expect that number to continue growing till Palms OS is but a tiny niche like Palms PDA products. Like the PDA line it won't make sense for palm to invest additional R&D $ into a dead end.

Sprint seems to be the only carrier really standing behind Garnet at ALL these days. I still have a sneaking suspicion that we'll never see the 755p on Verizon. In fact, I have a feeling we'll never see anything from Palm not running WM on Verizon. The 755p for VZW has been delayed so long and is looking increasingly weak next to even the dumbphones Verizon's putting out that Verizon will probably use their muscle & clout and make Palm take 'em all back and/or apply whatever $ they've already paid to future Palm WinMob Treo shipments. So look for a blowout pricing of reflashed/rebranded 755p's on Sprint after the first of year (IMO)...

Verizon dragged their feet on releasing the Treo 600. They dragged their feet on the 650. They launched the 700p simultaneous with Sprint and look how well that model has fared over the past year!

I think Palm's going to start hoarding their cash reserves and throwing lots of rebranded WM devices ala 500v at the wall & hoping that something sticks. I doubt we'll ever see PLinux on a shipping device. The question is if they'll go ahead and EOL Garnet soon or try to eke out another year with it "as is" on el-cheapo devices like the Centro or if Palm will try to shore up Garnet with an "OS 5.5" and lift some of its most pressing limitations (A2DP support? >4gb file volumes? >128mb RAM? UMTS connectivity? Wi-fi, Bluetooth, and cellular stacks in a single device?).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

I do not think this would be cost-effective for PALM.