Comments on: New Treo Announcement on Sept 12th?
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Sprint Treo 700wx Spec Sheet
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/leaked-sprint-treo-700wx-spec-sheet-195639.php
Nitro as well?
Show me a new GSM Palm OS Treo and I'll buy it, show me a WM one and I won't!
RE: yeah...
Maybe the T|X is the last palmos pda. Let's hope for the linux variant.
--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?
RE: yeah...
-cnegrad
RE: yeah...
-Add a charge LED.
-Add a voice recorder or at least a built-in mic
-Add BT 1.2 support like the 700p
-Add the larger DBheap/DBcache from the 700p
-Bring back CDMA BT phone DUN functionality
128mb of prgram memory is the limit of OS 5.x anyway. 312mhz CPU is fine considering the price point. An internal storage drive of 512mb-2gb would be lovely (ala T5) but that's not likely to happen.
I'd actually like to see in addition to the TX2, an E3 (T|E2 with new branding and 2x the RAM + updated OS/apps) and a Z33 (SD slot + headphone jack added to Z22).
That would give Palm three solid models at the crucial $99, $199, and $299 price points. THEN let those be their final trio of PDAs. A Z33 like I desribe above could solder on for years with minor tweaks made to the packaging and pricing. Look how you can still buy those 128k Royal/Casio/Sharp organizers at retail and they are relatively unchanged in the past 20 years!
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: yeah...
How long have they been promissing new software for the Palm?
Greg in
Jax, FL
Does Palm treat it's customers fair???
"...The company is hoping the move to the Windows Mobile will help alleviate the concerns of Treo users who have long complained of Palm's own operating system crashing the handsets on a regular basis.
In June, the company stopped shipping its Treo 650 model in Europe because it was not compatible with a newly introduced phone technology standard".
Didn't Palm state the they stopped shipping 650's to Europe because of new European environmental laws?????? Didn't they ship large quantities before the new laws went into action?????
What Reuters is saying is that when it's up to Palm... PalmOS isn't a good platform for the Treo.
RE: Does Palm treat it's customers fair???
This is the kind of attitude that angers me.
>palmato @ 8/19/2006 12:15:25 PM #
>Unfortunately lack of leaked pictures / info probably means there >will be no TX|2, at least for this year. Keep in mind that >projected revenues from pure PDA's for this fiscal year should >drop to 15%, as Mr. Colligan said.
If Colligan would not have abused the handheld line at the expense of the Treo, he would'nt be in the situation where he has to announce the irrelevancy of handhelds. Colligan was, is and always will be a Treo wh**e. I would not be surprised if he said the 15% with glee; like "Yay! We finally canabalized the handheld market! We got everybody to switch to Treos! And those who cannot or do not want to... well F THEM!"
It is unforgivable that Palm inc pack the Treo with tons of features (cam, mic, big batt, keyb, etc), while leaving them out of the TX. The LD is a disaster because of the hd, so that does not count.
15%... maybe... but just seems to me that Palm is wishing for that.
And this ALP business = bs. It will fail. No one is going to go for a Palm OS ghost emulator. That is retarded. No one at the ALP conference appeared interested and rightfully so. They all realized that Palm OS was dead and they are in shock.
If Palm OS dies, WM will takeover.
Linux might have a future on mobile devices, but only if it pretty much runs native Linux programs. I doubt ALP does that.
Appears too difficult for Palm to make a handheld with OLED, a more complete suite of software, Cobalt, wifi, bt, wimax, twin front speakers, a stand (plastic piece in the back), a better keyboard (like Wordlogic.com), a better stylus, etc. Too difficult. They rather pretend that the market is simply fed up of PDAs and only Treos have a future. I hate slackers.
Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
Palm TX|2 wish list:
- Built in 4-6-8 GB flash ROM drive.
- Pointier stylus. (Like on the T3 if I recall correctly).
- Textured, plastic stylus like on the HP hx2750 model. The current metal one is too slipery.
- Onscreen keyboard that has both numbers and letters on same panel. This toggling stuff is too time consuming.
- 416 mhz (because some 320x480 movies at 30 fps are just a tiny little bit underpowered at 312mhz - and overclocking is not for the masses).
- Put a little flip plastic thing on the back to stand the Palm up while we watch movies. Like a picture frame stands up. People like to put the Palm standing up on their desks and watch shows and movies while they use their laptops. Why hasnt Palm thought of this before?
- OS 6 Cobalt. I don't feel like waiting 2 to 3 more years for Linux thank you very much.
- Twin front stereo speakers (I listen to radio shows, movies, games; and having the speaker in the back cuts the noise). When there is noise in the room, I can barely hear the Palm. Headphones are annoying.
- 4 GB+ compatible SD slot (that new SD standard thing that will allow up to 32 GB SDs).
- Put back the Home button like on the T5.
- Put back the Drive Mode from the T5.
- Put back the Files manager from the T5. Actually, make a new better one and steal the ideas from Microsoft WM file manager. Tap-hold-copy-paste, etc. They stole Palm's NVFS technology, so why the hell not.
- Put back the vibrating alarm from the T3. (more or less important)
- Put back the mic from the T3.
- Polyphonic alarms and precise volume control.
- Build in a camera. Treo people have them so why can't we?! Are we handheld buyers trash? *insulted*
- If the technology even exists, screens that respond easily to flat finger presses. Ex. to make those full screen keyboards useful and not having to tap with your nail instead of a comfortable flat press by your full finger.
- Graffiti 2 is great but please add single stroke Ts and Ks on top of their 2 stroke version? Please?
And most importantly...
-------> OLED screen <--------- or some other screen technology that offers very wide viewing angles, richer colors and a natural visual experience. I AM FED UP watching my movies by holding my TX at a weird angle and not being able to move it a milimeter for fear of losing the image. This has got to be addressed. If Palm just ignores this, PALMS WILL NEVER BE ADOPTED AS MULTIMEDIA MOVIE PLAYING (OR PICTURE VIEWING) MACHINES BY CONSUMERS. ------> PERIOD <-------
Sony added OLED to the latest Clie, and so can Palm Inc. At least put 1 model out there as an experiment for the American and Canadian markets. Or offer the TX in 2 models and charge a premium for OLED. Palm is saving $$$ by keeping the TX mold and design, let them convert that into a better screen and boost sales.
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
I am Canadian but Ah do I miss the days when American companies were warriors and leading innovators. Now we have to watch the Japanese make the OLED Clie in only Japanese, and instead settle here for sidegrades, incremental upgrades, designs going backwards (e.g, HP), confusion as to what OS will be used, negative false interpretations of the marketplace, slacking, on and on and on and on.
The USA is declining people and it has to stop. Palm has to be whipped into shape. Wake up Colligan.
15% sheeshh...
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
Palm will never release a device that will kill the rest of their handheld lineup with a allinone $800 device that no one will but exept the maybe %1 of the priviledged consumer.
Thinking within compromises is the key.
With that in mind cut 80% of your demand list or better yet grab some ice, sit on it, chill. Grow up maybe.
TX is perfect as it is.
When I grow up, there will be a day, when every Palm will be as I say.
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
When I grow up, there will be a day, when every Palm will be as I say.
The PIC prayer!
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Did Palm kill PDAs ON PURPOSE so they could sell more Treos? Hmmm
Beersy, S T F U. While Little Frenchie Lestat may be a tad "ambitious" in his wishlist, Palm's strategy of hopelessly feeble incremental upgrades has resulted in the death of the traditional PDA market. People aren't buying Palm's PDAs because Palm doesn't make any PDAs worth buying. Period. Build devices with a solid set of features in an attractive design and sell it at a fair price and suddenly PDAs will sell well again. Market them as an MP3 player/photo displayer/video viewer/email reader/Internet browser/PIM device/digital camera/digital camcorder that simply WORKS right out of the box with minimal configuration required. (If Palm expects the average user is going to track down TCPMP, DVD ripping software, MP3 management/ripping software, etc they are out of their minds.)
In one of the above threads hkklife listed some simple, incremental upgrades that are LONG overdue from Palm:
"(In addition to an improved battery):
-Add a charge LED.
-Add a voice recorder or at least a built-in mic
-Add BT 1.2 support like the 700p
-Add the larger DBheap/DBcache from the 700p
-Bring back CDMA BT phone DUN functionality
128mb of prgram memory is the limit of OS 5.x anyway. 312mhz CPU is fine considering the price point. An internal storage drive of 512mb-2gb would be lovely (ala T5) but that's not likely to happen.
I'd actually like to see in addition to the TX2, an E3 (T|E2 with new branding and 2x the RAM + updated OS/apps) and a Z33 (SD slot + headphone jack added to Z22).
That would give Palm three solid models at the crucial $99, $199, and $299 price points. THEN let those be their final trio of PDAs. A Z33 like I desribe above could solder on for years with minor tweaks made to the packaging and pricing. Look how you can still buy those 128k Royal/Casio/Sharp organizers at retail and they are relatively unchanged in the past 20 years!
Palm's stubborn failure to put these kinds of features on its PDAs is suffocating the PDA market. A cynic would say that Palm's abandonment of the PDA market is entirely by design, in an effort to force current customers to "upgrade" to Palm's expensive (high profit) smartphones. Unfortunately, the small screens on smartphones limit their usefulness. Wi-Fi enabled tablets are destined to become an important device in the world of consumer electronics, and Palm was uniquely placed to take advantage of this boom. But - exactly as Palm did with the opportunities to cash in on mobile email, MP3 and personal video player market - Palm has thrown away the potential for MASSIVE profits that was handed to them on a silver platter. Pathetic.
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
(Hmmm, how do I go about changing my tagline again?)
It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
I think the reason Palm's wanting to push the Treos is two-fold:
1. Naturally, the higher profit margins & the associated periperal sales from selling new cases, chargers, batteries, styli etc.
2. The smartphone world has always lagged the "pure" PDA world in hardware oomph. Palm is delighted to pursue this path since can milk their aging OS of choice using the same cheap hardware that their PDAs used years ago. Why blaze a new trail when you can revisit an old one in a new set of shoes? A natural followup to the TX & the LifeDrive would have been a hybrid device combining the best features of the TX & the LD in a slim, flash-based tablet style device. Instead, Palm retreats to the safe waters of high-margin, relatively low-tech smartphones with underwhelming specs.
A Treo 700P is basicaly little changed from a 3.5 year old T|C when you remove the Treo-specfic radio/antennae/removable battery/OS tweaks. The Treo has smaller screen of same resolution, same amount of RAM but cheaper/slower NVRAM vs. SDRAM on the T|C, and a slower CPU.
Also, keep in mind that I've not been pleading with Palm to release a 1ghz model with a gig of RAM and a 3d graphics chip mated to an OLED screen. I always keep a "very" realistic list of desired features (cost, batter life, Palm's ''zen'' philosophy). Heck, 99% of the things I'd like to see have appeared on various Palms over the years. I just want something that combines the best features of the T3, T5, LD and TX in a *single* device that's reliable, solidly build, and pocketable.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
In one of the above threads hkklife listed some simple, incremental upgrades that are LONG overdue from Palm.... Palm's stubborn failure to put these kinds of features on its PDAs is suffocating the PDA market.
It's a fine enhancement list. All reasonable stuff and perhaps even things that could put a little energy back into the PDA market. But the question right now is one of opportunity cost, not technical cost or bill-of-materials cost. If Palm expects to compete in the smartphone space (which as you have pointed out is getting a lot more competitive) then resources they dedicate to designing, developing and marketing new PDA models are resources they don't have to fight the smartphone fight. We'd all like to fold our hands and wish that this wasn't the world we live in, but that's not going to change the economic reality that Palm must come to grips with.
Palm should be concentrating on what its new OS situation is going to be and how they can improve on the Treo. That's not what I would like them to do--I'd prefer that they continue improving their PDA line as much as anyone here. It would be better for me as a user and in some ways maybe better for my business, too. But I'd rather see Palm suffocate the PDA market than suffocate the whole company, and that may very well be the choice they have right now.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
There's no reason that Palm couldn't continue to own nearly all of the declining but still profitable PDA market for the next several years with very minor tweaks & updates to their 3 core models...and FrankenGarnet is still very much a servicable OS for the needs of those users. The T|E formfactor tooling & design was paid off long, long ago. The cost of adding a cutout + a 2 cent internal mic on the front panel and a transparent power button with an internal green/red LED is miniscule.
I mean, Dell's completely thrown in the towel for the Axim line. HP has essentially abandoned R&D for their iPaq PDAs and is just churning out the same old stuff over and over. So Palm really is the ONLY game left in town.
On another topic:
If Palm truly wants to let everyone get on the Treo bandwagon then they need to do something VERY rogue-ish that flies in the face of the carriers--release an a new GSM Treo and sell it on Palm's web site unlocked for ~$250. Then for the price of a midrange PDA someone could dip a toe into the smartphone waters.
Remember, a Treo 700 with a 2/year contract at Verizon retail stores is $500. Full retail for a 700P w/ no contract is $700. That pricing is beyond insane. Until contract-free Treo pricing arrives that's roughly on par with a TX, there will be many, many users who refuse to become entangled in a cell provider contract and will either stick to Palm's PDAs or jump ship to a lesser-known Asian WinMob PDA maker (Asus etc).
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
Sure, but you have to admit that removing features that have already been completely researched and designed and manufactured in previous hardware starts to look like someone really is out to kill the PDA prematurely. The complaints about the T3 to T5 (and TX) "dumb-down" are valid.
It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
That's a pile of Palm Apologist Manure [PAM], Beersy
In one of the above threads hkklife listed some simple, incremental upgrades that are LONG overdue from Palm.... Palm's stubborn failure to put these kinds of features on its PDAs is suffocating the PDA market.
Beersy PALM APOLOGIZED:
It's a fine enhancement list. All reasonable stuff and perhaps even things that could put a little energy back into the PDA market. But the question right now is one of opportunity cost, not technical cost or bill-of-materials cost. If Palm expects to compete in the smartphone space (which as you have pointed out is getting a lot more competitive) then resources they dedicate to designing, developing and marketing new PDA models are resources they don't have to fight the smartphone fight. We'd all like to fold our hands and wish that this wasn't the world we live in, but that's not going to change the economic reality that Palm must come to grips with.
Beersy, don't make me laugh. First of all, almost ALL of the important features Palm is lacking in its PDAs have been included in other PDAs - INCLUDING ONES AVAILABLE FROM PALM YEARS AGO. Secondly, the cost of the missing parts is trivial, yet omitting these parts truly cripples the usefulness of what are rapidly becoming (compared to say, budget laptops) expensive TOYS. How much do you think it costs to include a microphone, modern implementations of Bluetooth/Wi-Fi, a charging light or 128 MB of RealRAM™? Or how about fixing buggy software? Or including a suite of apps that allow users to take advantage of Palm's multimedia capability? Or a CD with categorized trial versions + screen shots of the top 1000 Palm apps? Or a 30 minute introductory MPEG video explaining the basics of Palm computing? This isn't rocket science, Bubba. Unless Palm is purposely trying to sabotage its own PDA sales, their failure to implement common sense CHEAP measures makes no sense for a company desperately fighting for their lives. Why is a 3 year old CLIE TH55 leagues better than any Palm-branded device you can buy in 2006? Totally unacceptable.
Palm should be concentrating on what its new OS situation is going to be and how they can improve on the Treo.
Well they need to concentrate a LOT harder, since in the 3 YEARS since Palm was handed the Treo franchaise on a silver platter they have done next-to-nothing to improve the Treo - despite the fact that the Treo is both the company's marquee product and main profit maker. Let's be honest and list what was added to the follow up models to the Treo 600:
Treo 650:
- less usable memory
- Bluetooth
- removable battery
- pathetic NAND Flash/CrapRAM™
- 320 x 320 screen
- slightly better camera
- worse keyboard/D-pad
- faster processor (312 MHz Vs. 144 MHz)
Treo 700
- slightly more usable memory
- EVDO capability
- slightly better camera
- worse keyboard/D-pad
- more heap
Did I miss anything? Not a lot to show for 3 years of concentrating, is it Beersy? Do you think maybe they just need a little more time and then they'll be able to DESTROY Nokia, Motorola and Sony Ericsson? Yeah. Riiiiiiiight.
And Palm's current OS nightmare is ENTIRELY thier own fault. They tried to get cute by playing corporate Enron-style games with their various spinoffs, etc. and it came back to bite them in the a$$. They can concentrate all they want about their OS choices, but it won't chnge the fact that their options are limited:
1) Fully embrace Windows Mobile and risk becoming JAWL (Just Another WinMob Licensee)
2) Try to customize Windows Mobile with Palm-like PIM, ease of use and possibly a StyleTap Platform-like PalmOS emulator
3) Buy/license the rights to further develop PalmOS into a next-generation OS
4) Keep licensing PalmOS 5 until it implodes from the weight of all the hacking that has been inflicted upon this ancient piece of shi*
5) Create their own Linux-based OS
6) Wait for certain death with ALP-OS
1, 2 and 3 are possible ways to survive; 4 is what Palm has done for years and this status quo has lead to the company's current precarious situation; 5 is a longshot given Palm's severe lack of codemonkey talent; 6 is a sure-fire way to invite lawsuits from investors who have lost their shirts playing Russian Roulette with Palm's stock.
That's not what I would like them to do--I'd prefer that they continue improving their PDA line as much as anyone here. It would be better for me as a user and in some ways maybe better for my business, too. But I'd rather see Palm suffocate the PDA market than suffocate the whole company, and that may very well be the choice they have right now.
Beersy, what you fail to understand is how fickle a mistess the carriers are. By throwing everything into Treos and completely turning their backs on the Palm Faithful - who have kept Palm alive for over 10 years - the company is shooting itself in the foot. What happens if say, the Motorola Q and Nokia N61/62 become smash hits for the carriers that pick them up in 2006? Herd mentality takes over and ALL of the carriers begin to push what sells (just look at the way carriers hype that horrid little pile of dung called the Motorola RAZR). Suddenly Sprint, Verizon, Cingular, etc aren't pushing Big, Bulky Treos anymore. Suddenly individuals and businesses aren't buying Treos by the Truckload™ anymore. Suddenly Palm's profits are tanking. Suddenly it sure would be nice if Palm had a vibrant second revenue stream (traditional PDAs) to fall back on. But they don't, having suffocated the PDA baby while it slept in it's crib, oblivious to the deranged Treo-only plans of Cult-leader Colligan et. al. With the N61, Nokia has made a higher quality device than the Treos. Sure, it would be nice if it could run PalmOS apps (imagine StyleTap for Symbian!), but since most users don't have a significant investment in PalmOS software and the N61 ships with a fairly complete suite of apps, I doubt the Big Bad PalmOS library will affect Nokia's N61 sales one bit. I expect sales of Treo competitors to snowball throughout 2006, with price and or features from now on putting the Treo franchaise to shame. Motorola's Q and the Nokia N61 were merely opening shots across Palm's bow. Expect the big boys (Nokia et. al.) to start dropping the NUKES in 2007. Sorry, but Palm replying with a water pistol (Treo 750p sporting a 2 megapixel camera and 512 MB NVRAM) just ain't gonna cut it in 2007, Bubba. Nokia et. al. win 3-6 3-6 6-0 6-0 6-0. Game over.
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
Only problem is that now that Nokia et. al. have FINALLY started to get serious about these devices (they waited until Moore's Law etc. made it feasible to offer a decent, relatively inexpensive smartphone and they learned from both the good ideas (keyboard, form factor) and blunders of the Treo 600) the technology offered by smartphones will blow anything Palm can put together out of the water.
For years Palm was a big fish in a little pond (PDAs). Palm then had three years relatively unopposed to make its mark as a little fish in a big ocean (cellphones). Unfortunately, the sharks (Nokia et. al.) are back and Guppy Palm is looking more and more like a tasty little Shark Snack™.
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
It also could be argued that smartphones didn't make much sense until high speed cellphone data networks were rolled out to any significant degree (i.e. 2006).
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
Anyway, you're all preaching to the choir (not converting an "apologist"). I haven't seen a Palm PDA that interested me since the Tungsten T3, and my 3 year old T3 is still the only device from Palm that I have ever carried for personal use.
I'm sure the reason Palm stopped improving on the T3 was that they made too much money from it. We all know that power users like ourselves constitute the overwhelming majority of PDA consumers and that it's impossible to cut costs and remove any features without alienating that huge customer base and seeing collapsing revenues. So, to give the CFO a break from counting those overwhelming piles of money that were pouring in, Palm did just that.
There's my explanation for the decline of the Palm PDA from its 2003 high water mark. From what I've read here on PIC it sounds like it's the only explanation that makes sense. ;-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
Why certain death? It seems to be making much more rapid progress than PalmSource's previous attempts and Access themselves make quite a decent program with NetFront, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt their programming talent - vast differences between making a browser and making an OS notwithstanding.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
Smartphone appeal: it's all about the apps...
Why certain death? It seems to be making much more rapid progress than PalmSource's previous attempts and Access themselves make quite a decent program with NetFront, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt their programming talent - vast differences between making a browser and making an OS notwithstanding.
What advantage do you see in hitching Palm's busted-up wagon to a BRAND NEW, UNTESTED platform with NO DEVELOPERS and NO THIRD PARTY APPLICATIONS instead of going with a proven OS like Wimdows Mobile or Symbian? Palm needs to settle on a single OS for all of its devices ASAP.
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
China is.
May You Live in Interesting Times
Access is betting the house on a LONGSHOT. (With a broken leg)
China is.
Perhaps, but don't forget the DoCoMo connection. And unfortunately for Access:
1) They are NOT a Chinese company (despite their attempts to buy their way in with the China MobileSoft purchase).
2) China (and China telecom cos.) like free or nearly free. Why buy an OS from a Japanese company when they can use the lure of the apocryphal "1 Billion Chinamen" market to get another company to give them an OS for next to nothing? All they have to do is promise to buy support in return for a free OS and then turn around and internalize support once they have sucked all of the useful IP out of their naive victim. Most foreign companies (including Big, Bad Microsoft) trying to do business in China eventually get somomized.
3) Time is of the essense. ALP-OS/NetFrontLinux is a modular KludgeOS and it just take problems with a single module to force slippage of the date it's expected to go gold. Telcos and handset manufacturers can smell B.S. a mile away and are unlikely to give ALP-OS the second (and THIRD!) chances that Palm gave to Cobalt.
4) Windows Mobile, Symbian, LinuxOS du jour™, maemo (expect telephony in a few months), etc are REAL OSes. ALP-OS exists only in theory. As far as I know, when playing Cellphone OS Roshambo "Real OS" beats "Vaporware OS". Every. Single. Time.
5) Access does not have infinitely deep pockets. They are a small company that simply needed to reinvent themselves, much the way Handspring did. Unfortunately, the market for their future core product could evaporate as fast as you can say "Open Source". (Or is that "Open Sesame"?)
TVoR
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
They've got plenty of cash flow from Netfront to fall back on, and even in the platform space, the cellphone is only part of their play.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
I asked Dave (can I call you Dave, David?) almost exactly the same question in the ACCESS Developer Network thread a coupla weeks ago - "Apart from the Ghost emulation, is there any real incentive for PalmOS developers to move onto ALP as opposed to a more proven OS like, say, WinMob or Symbian?" The response:
WinMob is attractive because of the great .NET developer tools and the large variety of cool devices, but I've spoken to various developers who agree that .NET is a huge disappointment from a performance and memory standpoint. One prominent long-time Palm developer (whose name I won't mention) spent 9 months on a .NET port only to find that the performance of his application was unusably poor and the memory requirement too great to run reliably on most devices. He's serving WM customers by shipping his Palm OS product with StyleTap now and getting better results.
Symbian has not been very attractive, except to Java developers. The native application development tools are incredibly painful to use. You can spend days getting your first "Hello World" application to work. And despite the large number of devices there is a very small percentage of users who even know that they *can* install software on the their Symbian phone.
Initially the incentive to develop for ALP will be based on "does it look like ALP is going to sell well" and "does this look like a fun platform to develop for."...
I figure the same will apply to users too. If ALP sells reasonably well, and if it's as effortless and dare I say it, fun, to navigate as PalmOS, then I'll be very willing to give it a shot and so would other people. And having purchased quite a few useful PalmOS apps and some great games over the last year, the PalmOS emulation is an attraction too. (The same goes for WinMob with Styletap, I know)
A future where the incumbent always wins? Never! I refuse to believe in it.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
> developers. The native application development tools are
> incredibly painful to use. You can spend days getting your first
> "Hello World" application to work..
Then it looks like there is an excellent niche a good developer could aim at, given the huge Symbian presence throughout the world.
Tool maker, anyone?...
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I xpct
They've got plenty of cash flow from Netfront to fall back on, and even in the platform space, the cellphone is only part of their play.
I believe Access' future income from NetFront is not quite as rosy as you believe. Ever heard of a little outfit called "Opera"?
I haven't looked at their financial status recently, but last time I checked they were not as cash-rich as you seem to think they are.
RE: Here is a more specific answer to your question about what I
May You Live in Interesting Times
Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
I didn't realize that the E62 ditches not only the E61's WiFi radio but also the 3G radio. That's quite an interesting backward step. Makes you wonder what this says about Cingular and the other US wireless carriers doesn't it? Do they think price is becoming a lot more important than function and speed for the US consumer?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
I mean, imagine something like the ungainly 700P/W being sold for $500ish in Europe or Asis...it'd never fly, regardless of OS.
I think that's why you've seen a rather consistent stream of handsets on Cingular that still support just EDGE alongside plenty of 1x handsets on Verizon & Sprint.
I think $100 (which is what the RAZR is now-or less-with all carriers IIRC) is the magical price point for what the "average" joe is willling to pay for a dumbphone. And with the arrival of the Q, $200 is going to be the new smartphone pricing paradigm (all prices quoted w/ contract of course).
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
> E61's WiFi radio but also the 3G radio...
Mossberg is comparing a CDMA TREO to the GSM Nokia. Thus the CDMA phone is faster as a matter of course.
I did not see anything in that review that suggested the GSM Nokia had been castrated.
And if the price is LESS than the Q, Nokia has a winner.
RE: Mossberg states the obvious :P
I think it says more about what the U.S. carriers can get away with. Is the E62 significantly cheaper than the E61?
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
-- http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12408
Of course, these may simply be rumor-poop, too.
Note - Wifi and 3G...
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
[oops!]
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
-- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2005426,00.asp
Note the comment about the E62's possible price point...dumbphone indeed!
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
I did not see anything in that review that suggested the GSM Nokia had been castrated.a
The E61 is a 3G handset: http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Oct2005/2052.htm
But the E62 is not, according to Mossberg: "GSM technology also saddles the E62 with its biggest drawback: It is much slower at receiving data such as email and Web pages than the Q or the Treo 700, or even certain BlackBerry models. That's because it uses EDGE...."
The E61 has WiFi and the E62 does not: http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/mobilephones/ontheradar/0,39050922,39371463,00.htm
I'd call that castrated.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
In any case, as "proof" of the pudding, read any review out there about the E62 that gives thorough specs - I provided a link just above to the PCMag review.
[as just about always, I have zero personal knowledge about such things; but I read real fast and luv to surf...and have no problem citing external sources of information outside of my control...correctly...]
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
-- http://review.zdnet.com/Nokia_E62/4505-6452_16-32028401.html?tag=pdtl-list
Note - Wifi, 3g, etc etc etc...
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
This is a great failure of design and marketing by the smartphone OEM's and OS makers.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
Mobiledia seems to agree with CNet Asia and Mossberg: http://www.mobiledia.com/phones/nokia/e62.html
CNet USA is the same content as ZDNet (as usual). That's the only place I can find reference to UMTS and WiFi.
PC Magazine (your link) says EDGE, not UMTS. I don't see anything about WiFi there, either.
Obviously, there's some confusion, but it looks to me like most reviews agree that the E62 has had both radios castrated.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
But...enough.
We'll see what it really has at some time, I'm sure.
For...uh...$99?
If the Nokia E62 is worth $99, how much is the Treo 700p worth?
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8630/
Secondly, what a few of the posters here have been saying seems to be going right over the heads of the Palm Apologists. Allow me to simplify:
- The Treo lineup is horribly overpriced and is now the source of the bulk of Palm's profits.
- Treos are big, nerdy-looking phones that will not appeal to the majority of consumers who place a higher value on appearance and small size than ultimate functionality.
- Up until 2006 Palm had no serious competition in the world of so-called smartphones.
- The Motorola Q and Nokia E61/2 sell/will sell for a lot less than the Treo 700p and casual customers consider/will consider the Q and E61/2 to be a "better deal".
- Smartphones are a dead end as a product niche - "Regular" cellphones are already co-opting the market of so-called smartphones.
Bottom line: Palm's current Treo lineup and "ambitious" premium pricing strategy are living on borrowed time. Dinosaurs are replaced in the blink of an eye when a new hotblooded creation arrives on the scene. Even the once-dominant T-Rex disappears overnight. Palm appears to be oblivious to the lessons learned from evolution (Perhaps Colligan is a Creationist? And Hawkins a Scientologist?) and will soon sink into a Tar Pit of Red Ink... If Palm tries to compete with the low-priced, leaner, meaner competition by slashing prices, then they can kiss profitability goodbye. If Palm fails to slash prices then they can kiss sales (and thus profits) goodbye. Catch-22. Ooops!
TVoR, Inc.
Copyright 2006
All rights reserved.
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
This is August 2006.
Anywho, I'm sure they'll eventually change their website words to match their legal SEC filings someday (watching with bated (er...baited?...giggle) breath!) but I think he's pretty much past-tense...
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
gurgle...
The Motorola Q and Nokia E61/2 sell/will sell for a lot less than the Treo 700p and casual customers consider/will consider the Q and E61/2 to be a "better deal".
Well, duh! It's supposed to be some kind of revelation that devices aimed and priced for the mass market are going to sell in larger numbers?
Just so you know, Voice, that "Palm Apologist" that you hear saying the Treo is going to outsell the Q or E62 is in your head. Not even Mossberg is making such a claim. All he says is that the 700p is still a better smartphone. And from reading the review you have to wonder if the story would have been different were he reviewing the E61 with WiFi and UMTS.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
A solid ROM update or two plus a permanent $100 price drop would help matters drastically for the (very) short-term.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
Treo 700p - HORRIBLE lagginess
I believe Palm is retooling and will bring out a "Revision b" (like what happened with the Treo 600) with little fanfare. Early adopters usually get screwed (as usual). To be honest, I don't trust Palm's updates anyway. I'll leave my Treo 700p as-is until I see an update that has been verified as being stable by a LOT of independent users.
It's still the best smartphone on the market that I've seen/used IF you have very low expectations from it as a telephone and IF you keep from loading more than 2-3mb of apps into main memory (lest the dreaded lag appear).
That's a lot of ifs. I think you're showing signs of Abused Spouse Syndrome (A.S.S.) - apologizing for the abuser's behavior. I find it ridiculous to say a "smartphone" is really a "smartphone" if the phone component is useless. A few days ago I received a call on the Treo and it crashed as soon as I tried to answer it. This was only the third or fourth call I've received on the Treo, so needless to say I continue to carry my Samsung i500 (a real smartPHONE) everywhere despite also lugging the 700p around. And what's the point of having 60 MB of available NVRAM A solid ROM update or two plus a permanent $100 price drop would help matters drastically for the (very) short-term. Even at $550 - $600 the Treo 700p is WAY overpriced. If it wasn't for Sprint's cheap EVDO (unlimited EVDO + 500 anytime minutes + free roaming onto Verizon + free nights & weekends for $30/month via their SERO plan!) I would not have bitten on this half-baked Treo. The Treo 700p should really have been called the Treo 600.3 TVoR
Comment cut off...
TVoR
Edit... Take 2
Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
"Innovate or die!"
"Innovation is dead!"
Which of the above two catchphrases is true with respect to the smartphone world? I'm not sure that I know the answer to that question anymore. Do you?
After years of coming up empty, Handspring struck gold with its last corporate breath when it created the brilliant Treo 600. Make no mistake about it - the Treo 600 was an innovative device. In the PalmOS world the Treo 600 is second only to the original Pilot 1000 in terms of historical significance and (in my opinion) second only to the Sony CLIE UX50 in terms of purity of design/engineering. I've always been impressed by the amout of thought that went into Handspring's Treo 600 Hail Mary (touchdown) pass. Even the fact that this impressive design unfortunately was subsequently crippled by suboptimal construction and underwhelming parts selection did not diminish what the Treo 600 was able to accomplish.
Palm later took advantage of Handspring's innovation and hitched palm0ne/Palm, Inc. up to the Treo Express and rode it back to (barely) profitability. Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, et. al. have had 3 years to observe the successes and failures of Handspring's innovation and have no doubt learned several real world lessons about smartphone usability/design from Handspring's protracted beta hardware test (let's be honest here) called the Treo 600/650/700p.
Has the Treo franchaise been successful? Yes it has. No it has not. You decide. Ever-increasing sales of high margin Treo handsets have brought a much-needed injection of cash into Palm's coffers, but in the long run the Treo may become a two-edged sword. Much of the Treo's success is attributable to two facts:
1) Palm's failure to release any compelling high end PDAs since Palm began focusing on the smartphone branch of the company likely allowed the Treo to cannibalize sales to customers that would have otherwise bought a traditional tablet-style PDA. While this conjecture is impossible to prove, the rise in Treo sales have been accompanied by a similar decline in sales of traditional tablet-style PalmOS PDAs. The PalmOS device market appears to be finite - at least as long as devices contine to be sold at current price levels.
2) Up until now Palm has had no serious competitors in the smartphone world. The Treo is the de facto standard for smartphone design and even today no competitor can match its combination of integrated OS, User Interface, keyboard, size, price and application library.
But the sword cuts both ways and the smartphone Muses that giveth in 2004-06 may taketh (and draweth a lot of blood [red ink]) in 2006-07. Ed Colligan has assumed a somewhat... precarious... position: genuflected before Lord Bill Gates, while desperately clutching the blade of the sword held to his neck by his (other) new master (The Carriers). Oh dear. What's a poor CEO to do? Palm no longer has to satisfy the capriciousness of end users one at a time. Now the company only has to court (and satisfy the capriciousness of) a limited number of carriers. Unfortunately, Palm had essentially ZERO experience in the Art of Seduction of Carriers prior to the Handspring merger, and even the Handspring cellphone people they picked up in the merger are relative newbies in the cellphone business. Pundits who watch the cellphone industry have been routinely bemused by the repeated bumblings of Handspring/Palm over the years. Palm's lack of a significantly new Treo product since the original Treo 600 was released almost 3 years ago is rather unfortunate and quite telling. Sometimes Palm's actions appear akin to seppuku...
I feel the Treo 600 was at least 2 years ahead of its time. I say this as a compliment, meaning its combination of OS, UI, keyboard and software was so well integrated that it would take the competition two years to produce a competitive device for the same price. But the Treo's position as a smartphone at least 2 years ahead of its time cuts both ways. Was the (non-geek) world "ready" for an all-out smartphone in 2003? Or even in 2006? Looking at 2003 - 2006's wireless network speeds + data costs, processor speeds (Moore's Law), battery technology, screen size, capabilities of existing smartphone OSes, Bill of Materials (including memory costs and screen costs), do smartphones automatically restrict their appeal to a very limited market? A market that just wasn't worth breaking a sweat over the past 2 years trying to woo, since it would inevitably evaporate* (*see below) anyway? Sony Ericsson, Nokia and Motorola's failure up until now to introduce a "Treo-killer" at a price that undercuts the Treo suggests that doing so wasn't worth it to them. (Trust me - any of the top 10 handset manufacturers could have easily produced a better "Treo 700" than Palm in 2006 if they wanted to...) Looking at what happened to Samsung's brilliant i500 and ill-fated i550 PalmOS smartphones gives a few clues as to why we haven't seen a tidal wave of all-out smartphones since the Treo 600 came onto the market.
One could take this a step further and pose the question I did on Michael Mace's clever blog site: In the end, if no one really wants to perform computing tasks on a cellphone, perhaps smartphones are an answer to a question that no one was asking?
Yikes! Now how's that for profound?
http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2006/06/we-need-new-mobile-platform-sort-of.html
Smartphone advocates tend to ignore the obvious fact that performing computing functions with crippled apps on a tiny 1 - 2 inch smartphone screen is a major hassle. Micro tablets (with 4 to 6 inch screens) like the Sony VAIO UX50 running Windows XP + genuine Windows apps + connected via Bluetooth to a tiny EVDO smartphone (or containing a cellphone radio) make a lot more sense for ultra mobile computing than smartphones do. Adequate screen size for video viewing + regular computing; decent sized keyboard; running the same software as regular desktops + laptops. THIS is the future of mobile computing.
When you take a close look at what sells to the average (non-geek) consumer and to the business world, it becomes increasingly obvious that smartphones like the Treo 600/650/700 are living on borrowed time. Consumers like simple, small, stylish devices that do a limited number of tasks and do them well. Compare the cellphones produced by Sony Ericsson, Samsung and Nokia to Palm's current offerings (Treo 650/700w/700p). How does Palm stand a chance against the powerhouses of the handset world?
http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=us&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pp1&zone=pp&lm=pp
http://www.samsungtelecom.com/recommend/view_all.asp
http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/comparephones
The best consumer electronics also need to work straight out of the box, without needing to consult a manual. Apple's iPod is a great example of consumer design done right. Palm, on the other hand, has blown a number of opportunities to solidify it's long term future by failing to simplify the number of steps needed to use its devices to the fullest. (Ironic, coming from a company that used to stress attentiveness to minimizing the number of taps needed to perform a given function).
Features Palm failed to exploit:
1) PalmOS software library. Every Palm device since 1999 should have shipped with a CD containing a simple, easy-to-browse catalog of the top 1000 PalmOS applications, containing screenshots + app descriptions and allowing 1-click installation of apps to the device. Deleting apps should have been improved by integrating an app like Uninstall Manager into PalmOS. Every Palm device since 2003 should have shipped with a library of trial applications loaded onto a browsable (and preferrably upgradable) 256 MB memory chip. Palm could easily have coded an SD card browser/installer app; the SD card would have cost peanuts to produce + expenses could have been lessened by charging commercial developers a fee for preferential listing of their applications by the browser.
2) MP3 player. Palm has yet to ship a device with a simple, high quality MP3 player and software aimed at rivalling the organizing ability of iTunes. Now that featurephones with MP3 capabilities are becoming commonplace (e.g. http://www.samsung.com/Products/MobilePhones/Sprint/SPH_A920WSSXAR.asp) the window of opportunity for leveraging MP3 capability to sell PalmOS devices has effectively closed.
3) Video player. Palm has yet to ship a device with a simple, high quality video player and software capable of easily creating + managing video files. The window of opportunity for leveraging video capability to sell PalmOS devices will likely be closed before the end of 2006. PalmOS lacks high end hardware for video playback (the stunning OLED-screened CLIE VZ90 + TCPMP showed how much wasted potential PalmOS had for video use); PalmOS has no Slingbox player; featurephones now offer mobile TV playback and other advaced content that PalmOS lacks. Video appears to be a lost cause for PalmOS.
4) Email. Palm had a golden opportunity to dominate the lucrative "push" emailmarket that RIM currently is making BILLIONS of $$$ from. Instead of creating and aggressively marketing a turn key Palm-branded email solution (Treo/Wi-Fi PDAs/software) to businesses, Palm took the... passive approach and left it up to individual companies like Good, Seven, etc to try to grow this market and provide the software to run on Palm's high margin Treos. The result was a fragmented smattering of offerings from several different companies, each too small to gain the trust of big business. Had Palm simply licensed a single push email solution and made it a standard component of the Treo package they could have become the new RIM and assured themselves a stable future supplying + supporting devices for wealthy corporate customers for many years to come.
In 2006 we will see that most of the functions previously thought to define the abilities of a smartphone are actually offered by featurephones as well. And in many cases, featurephones can perform these so-called "smartphone" functions more efficiently than full-fledged smartphones like the Treo family. It is also becoming obvious that the much-ballyhooed PalmOS library is a white elephant. The Average Joe doesn't want to hunt for a dozen obscure applications needed just to fix missing functionality within their device. A well designed inexpensive featurephone with simple, intuitive software for MP3 playback and management, video/TV playback and email, all combined in a small, stylish, light shell with high voice quality will likely be exponentially more popular with the Average Joe than phones like the Treos.
It appears that the reason the major handset manufacturers didn't go after the Treo may have been because this type of device (smartphones) was doomed from Day 1. The Treo-style smartphones' 15 minutes of fame appears to be over. Multifunction phone-centric featurephones, traditional laptops (and possibly micro tablets running Windows XP/Vista) are the future. Has Jeff Hawkins' secret project been killed off by the natural (inevitable) evolution of traditional devices (cellphones + laptops)? Apparently.
TVoR
Copyright 2006.
Purpose
The need to create new financial institution internet technology (FIIT) for we-com interaction is evident by the US$222 billion is capital obtained simply my impersonating other individuals and spending their capital.
It is wise to invest capital in areas where a need as well as a want exists. Some people want to pay tax, some want to assure their capital is free of greed assuring A is not compromised.
E-T
e-tellurian
Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com
we-com app needs to be in Treo's ROM
yes, we need the we-com virtual wallet application built right into the next Treo's ROM so that all Treo users can seamlessly interact in the global we-com financial network. if we collectively use our thoughts toward this goal, we can achieve it. but why has this not been accomplished yet? i envision a world with an e-com global network. Perhaps we-com can negotiate a deal with VISA, Mastercard, or AMEX to piggyback off of their global networks? And maybe Coke and Pepsi and Frito Lay for IR vending machines? And perhaps Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM for virtual door/ignition locks? And perhaps EZPass for tolls? McDonalds and Burger King? USAIR and United airline tickets? State DOTs for Driver's licenses? The possibilities are endless. perhaps Pikesoft can help develop this application and virtual infrastructure? the world is ready, willing and able. the world is waiting. if the e-tellurian can successfully complete the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution, our choices as a global community will expand exponentially. but how much longer must the world wait? what do you need? what are your thoughts?
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
It's the damn ne-coms, I tells ya! They're out to stop us we-coms from completing the e-com circle and stepping into a harmonious new world of people-driven synergies. I say it's time we take action. It's time we took up arms!
Kill the ne-coms!!!!
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
Tom Cruise, L. Ron Hubbard and the e-com circle EXPOSED!
TVoR
Concerned in The Bay Area
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
If it ain't the ne-coms or the commies then it's the neo-cons!!
:-)
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein
RE: Mossberg: E62 not as 'fast or slick' as 700p
E-T
e-tellurian
Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com
More pics of the new Treo!
Enjoy the pR0n...
http://www.slashgear.com/more-pictures-of-palm-new-antennae-less-treo-241152.php
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
Please please please please let the upcoming PalmOS version be in this colour...
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
$699 is high indeed but that's roughly the same price the ulocked 650 premiered at as well, and it's still $100 less than an HTC TyTn will set you back.
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
Surely you jest, Kent.
TVoR
Hey...
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
I developed a high threshold for pain from having used the GSM Treo 650 for so long. Spontaneous resets...fatal exception errors...freeze ups...and so on. If I am to suffer more abuse from a buggy platform, it may as well be a "new" form of abuse instead of the status quo.
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
If I am to suffer more abuse from a buggy platform, it may as well be a "new" form of abuse instead of the status quo.
I think you'll find that Windows Mobile will oblige you richly in that regard. What's the matter with your Nokia E61? If I had to leave Palm OS I'd sooner jump to S60 3rd Edition or S80 than to Windows Mobile.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
4gb is barely enough flash storage for my media needs (SDHC/fat32). I refuse to give up on SD just as it starts to get somewhere in speed/capacity in favor of a barely supported format that's fragile, easily lost, and has a much higher $/mb ratio. MiniSD & MicroSD are just Sandisk trying to act like Sony and confuse the consumer whilst making a few more $.
Removing IR, however dated of a protocol it may be, is right up there with removing the voice recorder/mic, charging LED, screen backlight, two of the hard buttons etc etc etc.
As fiddly and wobbly as Bluetooth is, IR's always a safe fall-back for making a painless transfer of a contact or an image between two devices.
This is changing just for the sake of change. Palm TRULY has a death wish!
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
Huh???
I developed a high threshold for pain from having used the GSM Treo 650 for so long. Spontaneous resets...fatal exception errors...freeze ups...and so on. If I am to suffer more abuse from a buggy platform, it may as well be a "new" form of abuse instead of the status quo.
That makes no sense, Kent. I could see you deciding to move from a buggy PalmOS Treo to a Nokia E61, but a Windows Mobile Treo seems like a big step backwards unless PalmOS really cannot support 3G data on a GSM device. Even then, a TH55 or T3 + small 3G Nokia or Sony Ericsson dumbphone seems like a smarter combination for an experienced user like you.
TVoR
Baffled in The Bay Area
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
Meh, all things being equal, I've experienced just as many if not more bugs and crashes in PalmOS than WinMob. Back in the early PPC days I had quite a few fits requiring daily soft resets, but that hasn't been my experience with WM 5.0. The only truly problematic issue I have dealt with on my iPaq rx1955 (such a charming name) is ActiveStink. With AS 4.0 Microsoft redesigned the sync framework to act almost as a network attached device rather than a USB peripheral. As a result any firewall or network monitor software running on your machine blocks AS as it tries to connect with the desktop. Trend Micro wouldn't allow it to sync my iPaq at all, despite every workaround and magician's trick I could throw at it. Ultimately the only solution for me was to dump Trend Micro and switch to *gulp* Windows Live OneCare. Oi!
That fixed the problem. Not that it matters in the case of the iPaq...I never use it. In fact I will soon be ebaying all my non-cellular PDAs. It's all Smartphone from here on out for me.
>> "What's the matter with your Nokia E61? If I had to leave Palm OS I'd sooner jump to S60 3rd Edition or S80 than to Windows Mobile."
Matter?!?!?! Nothing is the matter with the E61, I love it!! In fact I plan on keeping it. My only despair is that, for a true PDA user, the lack of a touchscreen and PDA software library is somewhat gutting at times. I still have my old Treo 650 that I use on various occasions when I need a more flexible mobile computer, which the Treo is...despite the fact Symbian S60 is a much more powerful platform.
What I want is something to step up from the 650 and replace that as my "hardcore" smartphone. Having already looked at the 700p and come away completely unimpressed to the point of repulsion, by process of elimination (easy choice considering Treo 700 is the ONLY PalmOS smartphone in existence) PalmOS is no longer an option. That leaves WinMob, where...ironically, there are lot of great options to be had. A certain porn site just posted pictures of the new HTC Artemis and Trinity devices and they look hot (at least the Artemis anyway). Then of course the GSM Treo 750 is soon on the way, hopefully. So I'm keeping a close eye on those devices.
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
Screw Microsoft!
So what was I saying about that Windows Mobile Treo again?
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
You need a faster chip and more RAM and HD space for optimum MSFT VISTA performance. It's time for a new, top of the line DELL with the latest and greatest INTEL chip. Now get out there and BUY BUY BUY or you will be left behind!!!!!!!!!!!
"I hate the Apple thing. It's a "cultural problem." More specifically, the turtlenecked, Steve Jobs, thumb-up-the-ass, liberal-with-too-much-money "cultural problem."
http://underscorebleach.net/content/jotsheet/2004/12/apple_sucks
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
Now I can possibly get any "newer" than that. And Vista runs like shit on these state of the art systems. Vista will be Microsoft's undoing.
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
My 2.5 GB computer runs much better since I turned of my swap file. With 2 GB ram, why dont you do that? It also allows your HDD to spin down, which helps noise.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
I am absolutely stunned that Vista is in such dire straights this late in the game. At the eleventh hour Vista still in many ways feels pre-beta. Not a good sign, and I sure as hell won't be first in line to adopt this new OS. And that speaks volumes because I am an early adopter.
Good luck, Microsoft...you're going to need it.
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PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
[and rarley use even half of that]
Microsoft really cares about their customers....
... who are of course the large PC OEM's. The actual enthusiast upgrade market is minuscule, and most corporations dont upgrade their machines. In fact, they may even downgrade a new machine until they have a support policy for the new OS.
Thats just leaves Dell, and HP, and Fujitsu Siemens and Acer etc etc. And they will love Vista. Suddenly the $500 machines they have been selling will no longer be sufficient, and they will be able to justify shipping ALL machines with 2 GB and 256 MB video cards, raising their selling price back up from $500 to $700, increasing their margin from $25 to $35. No doubt, the only problems OEM's have with the hardware requirements of Vista is that its taking MS so long to ship it.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
Price of Progress
yes, I hope that VISTA pushes the PC hardware envelope. Would you rather have Palm's SNAIL PACE?????????????????????????????
Get out there and buy a REAL PC like DELL with an INTEL CHIP when VISTA arrives, you sons of bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F*CK AMD, F*CK HP, F*CK APPLE, AND F*CK STEVE JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
What the hell do you think is inside my Mac Pro? Intel Xeon 5100...the fastest CPU Intel makes. It's running XP and OSX as we speak. If Vista bogs down the fastest hardware on the market, what do you think it will do to mainstream PCs with lesser specs? Hint: it ain't gonna be pretty.
-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: More pics of the new Treo!
I will upgrade to Windows Vista but not IMMEDIATELY. I still occasionally have nightmares at the two <2-year old HP printers I had to chuck when XP came out and HP refused to release new full featured drivers for these models. I was stuck with the Windows default drivers which blew big time.
I figure I'll make the Cure 2 Duo jump right around the time Vista's been picked to death by the early adopters. I cringe at these "new" notebooks being sold with integrated Intel graphics and 512mb RAM that will be impossibly overmatched when trying to run Visat with the eye candy turned on.
Back on topic somewhat, it's actually much more painful to be a Palm OS early adopters than a Wintel one. The number of incompatible POS programs (ie haven't seen an update since 2003/2004) I've had to jettison in my transition from T3 to T5 to TX to 700P has been rather frightening.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS - I think not!
Adama, I find it strange that you believe a random poster over Sagio, who after all owns 5% of the company. Doesnt extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof?
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
== "...Sagio...providing annualized returns in excess of 25% for
== its clients..." (*)
and also mentions it manages more than $100 million in stocks.
Its PALM position ALONE is (was!) worth more than $100 million...great diversification, eh?
Is this REALLY a place that has more credability than a random poster?
Really?
=====
(*) I have NEVER seen ANY respectable mutual fund EVER say anything like "We return [this hard percent] to our investors". Have you?
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
Unless they employ Stockoperator I still think they have a tad more credibility, yes.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
Now, let's say that Palm DOES get UMTS support somehow or another. That gives Garnet at least another year to 18 month lease on life. Palm can then do a 700P update on the new antenna-less formfactor for CDMA carriers next year and then follow it with a 2nd UMTS POS Treo.
However, I'm calling hoax on HoFo/Brighthand's reports. The 700P will not be the final POS Treo released but it'll be the only one with real 3g support. The upcoming POS GSM Treo will be a budget-oriented release with EDGE support only, I predict.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
When Sagio says "more than $100M" they mean "way more than $100M". They own a similarly large chunks of BlockBuster Video (http://www.secinfo.com/dsvr4.v6n4.htm) and Advanced Cell Technologies (http://edgar.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=4232148&Type=HTML). I'm sure there are others.
Adama's got some bee in his bonnet over Sagio that I've never quite understood. They were actually a pretty good source of information about Palm for as long as they were publishing their (admittedly ungrammatical) updates.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
Thus the two stocks other than PALM were in the noise level when compared to the - what? - $110+ million original-cost PALM ownership.
And...MUCH more to the point...check out how ALL those stocks have behaved and how that compares to Sagio's own claims on yearly returns!
I have NO DOUBT that Sagio has DYNAMITE Sales folks - they obviously have convinced a LOT of folks (or some quite rich ones) that Sagio is the place to put their money. This cannot be argued about - afterall, they're wheeling and dealing (no matter how "well" they're doing it!) with more than a hundred million bucks!
Now THAT'S a Sales job!
But their overt record with these three examples says nothing GOOD about their research capabilities, does it?
Treo Lennon has IR, Nitro has not.
As can be seen from the pictures at treonaut.
http://blog.treonauts.com/
They are clearly not equivalent units.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo may have UMTS after all.
Yes, they do, which is why I don't believe Sagio anymore. Look, I gave them as much a benefit of the doubt as anybody when they were right about four new Treos, but something has always bothered me about that report. I ask again, has anyone else here read through the whole thing, as opposed to getting summaries? It's one of the single worst written documents I've seen in my entire life. Broken sentences, run-ons, punctuation ill-timed or absent entirely, gibberish and random statements--this is not the sort of thing that any big time organization would put their name on as a financial analysis report.
It stinks if you look at the content, too. They predicted Palm stock would more than triple, and it has actually gone down since their report. They cited two different release dates for "Hollywood," plus another for the "Lowrider," all within a single report. They made statements which are simply and clearly false, which anyone who knew the handheld business would know, and others which are merely inaccurate and highly flawed.
And then there's the issue of a reliable source which told us that the "Hollywood" report was bogus, and that Palm had no such device in development. Later on--what do you know--we find out that there really isn't a Hollywood, the WM GSM Treo is called Lennon, and it isn't the thing that Sagio tried to sell us on.
Realistically, the only thing that Sagio really got right without being tipped beforehand was the fact that there would be four new Treos. The fact that they would be launching at least one device in Europe first was practically a given after they set up an R&D center over there. Also a given was the fact that it would be Windows-based, since Palm OS has never really had a lot of traction over there. Once you have that, you can even guess that if there is a Windows CDMA Treo, and a Windows GSM Treo, then there will probably be Palm CDMA and GSM Treos too. Bingo: four Treos.
So I credit Sagio with a few deductions and maybe a little bit of inside information. But they've consistently missed release dates, device details, and the overall sense of their company is rather questionable. SV has a very good point about their promised returns versus the actual performance of their portfolio, and if they're giving the truth a facelift there, is it so inconceivable that they would present a few guesses as inside information in a document clearly intended to boost Palm's stock price?
And I'm not exactly advocating that this new information be taken as gospel, but I would certainly consider it a serious possibility, at least or possibly more likely than Palm launching a device under $300 that would eat into sales of their $400 and $500 smartphones.
And there are a couple of shadowed areas on the top of the device in the Nitro pictures... might be where the missing IR port is located. I'd be kind of surprised if it didn't have one.
RE: Palm OS GSM Treo will not have UMTS after all.
We've been through this before. Regarding the new Treo's the only factual errors were the release dates. Here it is again for anyone that missed it.
We know that PALM will introduce four new models in CY 06. In January they will introduce the already announced Treo 700 Windows which will be a Verizon exclusivity it will be the first EV-DO Treo on the market .Around the same time we believe PALM will launch a Treo 700p running PALM OS on the Sprint network, both devices will keep same form factor and will capitalize on the Treo strong foothold in the US enterprise Market.We also learned that PALM will be launching two new products around March 06 codenamed “Hollywood” and “Lowrider”. According to the Morgan Stanley analyst in Asia (covers HTC) the estimate production output will be 200K devices/month.
“Hollywood” will be a fancier 3G/GSM smartphone which will represent PALM first attempt at the European GSM market. We know the phone will have no external antenna and will probably be launched by Cingular in the US.
“Lowrider” will be a sub-$300 devices utilizing previous generation radios and providing PALM with an entry level PDA.
Besides the release dates (which even Palm got wrong (just look at the Treo 650 RoHS fiasco)) everything else is perfectly right.
How much would you pay for an EDGE device with a VGA camera, no infra-red or WIFI, and POS? $300 seems about right. The Palm competing device is much better specified. Its not cannibalization, its tiering, you know, like Ford or Dell or everyone else in the world who offers a range of products.
Regarding the IR port (or lack of it) on the top of the Nitro, I never expected you had such a capacity for self-delusion. Is that the Brighthand influence?
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
So Much for Lennon, What About Nitro.
I'm pinning my hopes on Nitro (though not very optimistic), but when is it going to be released/announced?
If it is low spec too, I can then go out and get a TX, safe in the knowledge that Palm won't bring out a killer PDA nay time soon.
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Reuters. :-D
Pat Horne