Comments on: PalmAddicts Editorial on 700p Status Report

700p updatePalmAddicts' Deputy Editor, PJ Arts, has posted a hard-hitting editorial piece lambasting Palm for a series of missteps, miscommunications, and delays in the Treo 700p's year on the market.

P.J. takes Palm's blog post from yesterday and analyzes it line by line and provides his own counterpoint to Palm's take on the issue. One particularly troubling absence (as mentioned in yesterday's PIC news item on the blog post) in the PalmAddicts piece is the absence of any mention by Palm of the app switching lag being addressed. The phone app lag that Palm references is not as annoying as the lag noticed when moving from app to app or when performing memory-intensive tasks within the OS.

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Why Treos Are Different

mikecane @ 4/18/2007 11:36:53 AM # Q
I'll link to the PA piece in my blog because I've linked to other pieces he's written.

But what I think highlights is just how different a Treo is from a PDA. I bet if this was a PDA, the fixes would have come out months earlier.

Putting aside the possibility of coding resource shortages (which just affected Apple's Leopard), all things being equal people are forgetting that a Treo has to be *approved by the carrier partners*. A Treo is *not just a Palm product*. It's a Palm-Sprint or Palm-Verizon or Palm-whatever product.

I really wonder if that accounts for some of the delays and if Sinclair just can't openly say that without causing trouble.

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You think so?

hkklife @ 4/18/2007 11:42:31 AM # Q
I agree on the Palm-Spring or Palm-Verizon or Palm-whatever carrier claim. Remember, Palm has less experience dealing with the carriers than someone like Motorola, Sony-Ericsson, Nokia or even RIM etc.

As to the other point: Do you really think PDAs would be given more attention?

The most recent Palm handhelds (Z22, TX) have been on the market for 18 months and never seen anything close to a substantial update. The E2 has been on the market for 2 years and could use a minor ROM update to fix the "find" bug and bring the latest VM & Blazer versions onboard.

The last Palm PDA to receive a "substantial" update was the LifeDrive's 2.0 update in December '05. If you don't want to call the LD a PDA then it was the T5's 1.1 update in June '05.

In fact, the only Palm PDAs in the past years to see substantial maintenance releases (ie fixes in ROM instead of RAM) have been the LD, T5 and T|C. The T3 saw a ton of little RAM-hogging updates that should have been rolled into a comprehensive ROM update. The cheaper Zires and T|E device have historically never received ROM updates and never more than a very few minor RAM fixes.

No, in the Palm support hierarchy, I think PDAs are dead last, CDMA POS Treos come in next, followed by GSM POS Treos. The WinMob Treos definitely lead the pack (thanks to M$) in things like bugfixes & OS upgrades.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: You think so?
mikecane @ 4/18/2007 12:06:54 PM # Q
>>>As to the other point: Do you really think PDAs would be given more attention?

Not more attention. You miss the point: Palm wouldn't have to wait for outside approval before releasing any major revision.

RE: You think so?
palmato @ 4/18/2007 6:34:47 PM # Q
But I wonder. SonyEricsson releases an update for their feature phones (K800, k610 for instance) nearly every month or two. Even the branded phones (3, voda) do get one, which means that the approval process should not be that time consuming after all.

So Palm's delays are because of the carriers or because of Palm itself? I tend to believe the latter. (garnet likely spaghetti nature should play a role)

I also believe that the iphone is sending palm into panic mode, but that's another topic. And it's late here....

Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: You think so?
retrospooty @ 4/23/2007 10:36:37 AM # Q
"Not more attention. You miss the point: Palm wouldn't have to wait for outside approval before releasing any major revision."

Its easy to miss the point when your only goal is to bash. =)

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One good thing...

JimmyJackFunk21 @ 4/18/2007 1:38:14 PM # Q
A cool feature with the Treo is that if you use the "M" app from Mercora, you can wirelessly access your digital music, and up to five friend's libraries, through your Treo. I think that that is something to take into account when verbally or literarily dissecting the device.

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Was the article taken down?

cervezas @ 4/18/2007 1:52:48 PM # Q
"404 Not Found" now from the link to the "rest of the editorial" on Palm Addicts.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
RE: Was the article taken down?
hkklife @ 4/18/2007 4:14:35 PM # Q
It appears to be back up now. Sammy moved it to the forums for discussion:

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

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palmstory @ 4/18/2007 3:40:20 PM # Q
This is what I sent to SplashShopper.

Hi there,

CONGRATULATIONS for coming to Mac! Hope more Palm OS Developers will follow you!

Regarding this announcement:

SplashShopper List Manager comes to Mac

Here are some pre sale Q's:

I have Treo 700P, Palm Desktop 4.2.2, Powerbook 17, OS 10.4.9 all latest updates...

Will this SplashShopper Data HotSync to my Treo 700p with it's own Conduit?

Still the same 15 Categories Palm OS Limit -- OUCH! If not, please explain who did you guys manage to get around it?:)!

Given all 700p headaches, and Maintenance Release scheduled for 5/28/07, according to Palm, MANY Treo users are keeping an eye on iPhone coming, so I wonder how much people will be investing in Palm OS Devices. See this OFFICIAL PALM BLOG:


Will SplashShopper sync to iPhone, or and iPod somehow?

Is SplashShopper Spotlight and Leopard, OS 10.5 Ready

TIA for your help!

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palmstory @ 4/18/2007 3:49:47 PM # Q
Has 700P USERS - CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT ever been considered?

They have those with cars all the time, and so many other products?

700P USERS spent top $$ based on Product Info that was more Hope than Truth!
Who is going to compensate 700P for COUNTLESS HOURS of having to play detective, troubleshooting, tech support and carrier calls?

Mayb it could have been cheaper for Palm to offer 750P as TRADE IN:), rather than try to do a Fix or Maintenance Release!?

As a PASSIONATE PALM USER of yesteryears, I see the ZEN of Palm becoming THEN of Palm!!!

Hopefully, iPhone will become what Palm SHOULD have been!!!

If there is TREO 700P USERS - CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT, I'll be among the 1st one's to sign!!!

PALM has FAILED me as a fan, as a user, as investor...

They don't listen, they have misled their customers for years!!! Luckily we have these forums to hold their feet to the fire!!! But, I'd rather hold a GREAT DEVICE in my hands, and have it with me on the go! That was supposed to be Palm...

Seem like the Con Game is over! The Golden Parachute Execs won't be able to run away forever, thanks to iPhone... MSFT's Windows Mobile is not Exclusive to Palm...

Palm Developers and Users will switch to iPhone as the "iPhone Economy" grows, like iPod Economy has...

Palm failed to win Corporate World, as it appears to me -- RIM won!

So, WHO will Palm's customers be? PDA folks? PDA's are dead!!! iPhone will be the New Thing!!! Simply Palm/Zen/Then > Simply iPhone/Tomorrow

I feel that Palm Users have been had!!!!

Hopefully it's not all that bad for Palm, cause I'd like Palm and others to keep iPhone on their toes, but I just don't see how that will happen, cause there way too many ticked off Palm Users...

I know Palm meant well, but they SIMPLY FAILED to DELIVER, and FAILED to SELL to Apple, who WILL DELIVER iPhone on 6/11/07 or soon after... But, of course, I am going to lower my expectations, cause who needs another heartbreak:)! But, the CONCEPT of iPhone, with minimum Hardware, will allow for faster progress, fixes etc. as opposed to PALM'S PATHETIC UPDATERS, MAINTENANCE RELEASES etc...

Maybe, somehow with Internet, Apple will circumvent GSM/CDMA Divide and it WORLD STANDARD? But that's whole other topic!!!

Time will tell... Can you hear me now, Palm?!

freakout @ 4/18/2007 7:07:22 PM # Q
Oh, for cryin' out loud... the iPhone is not the freaking messiah! It's not going to cure cancer, bring world peace or give you head. It's a fancy frickin' iPod.
palmstory @ 4/18/2007 8:51:44 PM # Q
I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!! You are TOTALLY CORRECT!!! iPhone is not a Messiah, end all device! No device is!

If it wasn't for iPhone, Palm would have continued its ARROGANT, INSANE ways, ignoring its CUSTOMERS!!! So, I think iPhone is a good thing as far as Checks And Balances.

Palm is SCARED, and thus they are being a little nicer to us, the customers!

I hope, Palm and others will shape up, and compete.. That way, no company takes its customers for granted!!!

When I said TREO 700P USERS - CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT, I didn't mean that a few $$ per claimant-user would fix everything! OBVIOUSLY NOT! But, if THAT what it takes to put Palm, and or any company, Apple included, on notice, then it MIGHT be worth it...

Now, with iPhone, Palm, and others in this area, need every good piece of pr... TREO 700P USERS - CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT could exploit such TIMING, and teach all those companies a leeson... At the same time, it might kill Palm too, which is why I am not 100% sure if such TREO 700P USERS - CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT is too NUCLEAR of a "cure"...

After reading that OFFICIAL PALM BLOG

I realized that I am just one of MANY FRUSTRATED 700p CUSTOMERS who have been mistreated... But, I doubt if all our collective show of frustration will have much impact on Palm's Bosses... Their Golden Parachutes will work just fine, while play detective with our Palm Devices...

Thanks for letting me vent... a little... Happy .prc's to all:)!

palmstory @ 4/18/2007 9:13:09 PM # Q

Their Golden Parachutes will work just fine, while we continue to play detective with our Palm Devices...

InsGuy @ 4/19/2007 9:01:03 AM # Q
I agree that the iPhone is not a be all to end all device. However, my next device, unless something else comes out between now and then that I consider a good value, will be the iPhone. I've long since switched to a Mac computer, for a variety of reason, not the least of which, I can't stand M$, and even longer changed from a palm OS device to WinMob. Now that device has died (after about 3 years), I'm NOT supporting M$ products any further. However, Palm really doesn't support Mac users either with their newer products. So in that regard, for me the iPhone is a very valid alternative for my next purchase, given that from where I sit, BOTH M$ and Palm have driven me away as a customer.

Just my opinion

All good things...

Treo 700P vs. iPhone
palmstory @ 4/19/2007 2:52:05 PM # Q
I am surprised.... I thought that Palm's Window Mobile Customers were better taken care of...

I just saw this articl

Microsoft: iPhone useless for business

Grass is greener on the other side, but... with so many sides, and green:) we are forced to make choices... Basically, if $$ is not an issue, one can swap plans every 25-30 days to get around Contract Cancellation Fees... But, most folks are probably too busy to do that, and so they get stuck...

Palm's lame posture is a gift to Apple/iPhone... iPhone is a gift to us all, cause it will hopefully push this industry harder towards better days....

As to iPhone being a CLOSED SYSTEM, my guess is that maybe the 3d party applications will run on it as Web Based, and we'll interface wit them via Safari on iPhone?

Today's ZOO, FREE FOR ALL ANARCHY paradig of Palm Economy, with all its fingerpointng is INSANE!!!

As I am trying to tame my IDEALISM about this stuff, I hopefe things get better after iPhone is out, and grows in popularity...

------ My Signature --------------

Treo 700P = lame, needs:

Upgrade Patch, Maintenance Release, whatever ASAP!!!

Manual Volume Control on Camcorder Recordings, which suck in low light!

White Screen, Lag, Delays when switching applications! - SUCKS!!!

Verizon, DUN (Dialup Networking), Tethering = highly unstable with my Powerbook 17, OS 10.4.9, all latest Updates...

Palm Desktop 4.2.2 (Mac) = End Of Life = Death Row! Needs to be REBUILD, with a Support for Services, AppleScript, .Mac

Make Palm OS, or whatever OS as ROCK SOLID as Mac OS!!!!

Hope iPhone will ROCK too, then Farwell Palm!!!?!? Unless Palm outApples Apple with something even more breathtaking than iPhone, which is tied to Rising Apple Empire!? I doubt that...

zullnero @ 4/19/2007 4:57:33 PM # Q
I don't get it. I've been using my 700p since a week after it was released. I have used it as both a development testing device as well as an everyday cell phone. I Bluesync with it constantly, and have used it as a dun modem for my laptop when I couldn't find a good wifi signal. I have loads of software running on it. I use it as the control center for my improvised car audio system. I have written software for it which has been used by a LOT of people (in conjunction with a company I worked with last year).

The kinds of problems I've had were fairly minimal. Stuff that I really just don't care about. When there was a problem, I got a patch, like for daylight savings and the ir stack issues we had.

I have no reason to sue anyone and no one has let me down. I have no intention of buying a new Treo, or any WinMob phone, anytime soon. By the way, I also develop for Windows Mobile and do it quite frequently. Windows Mobile ALWAYS has its own set of problems, and I just want to remind you all of that. Microsoft does what it wants, and the vendors and carriers have to bend to that. On top of that, Windows Mobile always has had a horrible interface for general phone use. It's a hacky interface for PDA use. Everyone keeps thinking that it's really that's not. It's still ugly, and just because it has gotten better doesn't mean anything. It's gotten better from something that was entirely unusable.

Class action lawsuit? For what? Because I wanted WiFi, but bought a phone that didn't support it anyway? I mean, that's really the only thing I could want out of the 700p, even now. But it's really not a big deal, I have a data network...I just want to be able to use my old wifi card with my Treo, is all. I hate wasting perfectly useful tech like that.

Palm III->Palm Vx->Palm m505->Palm m515->Tungsten T->Tapwave Zodiac II->Treo 700p

SeldomVisitor @ 4/19/2007 7:22:13 PM # Q
Though I personally doubt the utility of class action lawsuits unless one is interested more in change than reward, the fact is that PALM itself admitted the 700p was sufficiently screwed up that its software could not be patched, but must be replaced...a full year after the 700p was released and, theoretically, AS the 700p goes EOL.

Thus YOUR particular experiences know...moot.

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Why is Palm screwing its Treo 700p customers?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/22/2007 4:27:36 PM # Q
OK, enough with the B.S.

Palm released a buggy, unstable device as its flagship product almost a year ago: the Treo 700p.

Power users like TVoR immediately pointed out a litany of problems with the device, only to be shouted down by Palm Apologists. Meanwhile, Palm pretended there was nothing wrong with the 700p.

Eventually, the complaints reached a critical mass and Palm was forced to address the issue publicly after being shamed into action by posts at TreoCentral.

Instead of quickly fixing the problems, Palm then tried to play the "blame game", pretending the delays were due to slow carrier approval of fixes. Meanwhile customers who bought the 700p were left taking it up the a** by Ed Colligan & Co.


Enough with the B.S., Palm. Apologize, fix the damned phone and stop screwing us/p, already!

The goodwill the Palm name had earned from the Palm Pilot, Palm III, Palm V, etc. has now been completely used up. Palm's longtime advocates are sick of the crappy hardware, buggy OS releases and slow rate of releases from Palm. If Palm wants to swim with the Big Fish like Nokia, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, etc., then they need to compete by the same rules. No one is going to cut them any slack from now on. 2007 will be sink or swim time for Palm, Mr. Colligan: the Treo 600 lifeboat Palm had received from HMS Handspring capsized and drifted to the botom of the Mariana Trench in 2006.


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joad @ 4/24/2007 1:22:26 PM # Q
How about someone LEAKING the friggin' 700p firmware? If it really exists, it must have been floating around various beta testers for months now... (then again, from Palm's track record I get the sense that their entire "beta testing" team is the wives and grandparents of high-level executives...)

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