Comments on: Palm - Don't Call it a Comeback

Video recording is what's missing, not playback.

What do I care what you quoted?

Your entire post of meaningless wordiness was replaced by my succinct to-the-point one.

MikeCon was addressing the video playback comment.

I have a video of video playback and the music app in action on the way shortly...

SV, you are really becoming an annoying pain in the ass.

Oh, in one of the demos on engadget or giznmodo or TreoCentral (I forget which), a Palm rep said MMS and video capture aren't implemented yet but will probably be there for the final release

http://treocentral.com/content/Stories/2322-1.htm

at 17:18

Question: "Does it support MMS?"

Response: "We will support MMS."

That, at least to me, says they don't have it ready yet but will be ready for launch.

True, though it does show it's not ready yet, but will be at some point. I just guessed at launch because it's one of their advertised features and on the Pre's official webpage as well.

Since Palm no longer owns PalmOS, it doesn't makes sense to keep developing devices based on that platform. A few years back when Palm split into PalmOne and PalmSource, then Access bought PalmSource, Access acquired the the rights to PalmOS (hence why "Access Powered" started appearing on Treos, for example).

So the situation is a lose-lose for PalmOS: Palm no longer owns PalmOS, and any future development of PalmOS is dependent on Access (who hasn't had any luck selling their "ALP" OS, to my knowledge), not Palm.

To me, it's somewhat nostalgic to see essentially the end of PalmOS, but it was long coming after all the debacles with Palm over the last few years. Garnet is well past retirement age, and Palm needs a fresh start with something that looks as new, potentially revolutionary, and competitive...like WebOS.

Besides, unless Palm outright says "no" to Styletap (which I doubt, since Palm is not Apple), I'll be shocked if there isn't a PalmOS emulator available for WebOS within 6 months to a year of the Pre's launch.

Thankyou. Me neither. I reckon it's 'cause they've starved us of good news like this for so long. And hey, everyone loves an underdog!

That is slick. Love the way the preview glides away afer a second.

Also, I just realised that when you're on a phone call it's probably going to appear in that notification area down the bottom, so you can switch back to the phone with one hit.

I also wonder if an incoming call with mute MP3 and video audio?

Speaking of mp3, I wonder if you'll be able to install your own custom ringtones on the Pre and assign seperate tones to contacts. My sister's iPhone-toting boyfriend was complaining on Sunday about how he couldn't do the latter.

i don't think this Pre is the device for a so-called "writer". i think you should just get a little netbook and be done with it.

"Precompatable" - that is sooooo unintentionally funny!!

Gekko, shut up! Think of my wanting WP and a BT KB as the ability to write looooong SMS, okay?

So, Gekko, after yelling at all of us pre-Pre to "Join the 21st century," it seems YOU want to stay in the 20th with your toy Centro. Tch, tch.

Now the rest of you list what YOU need so this thread gets back on track.

What if Palm does what Apple has: its own version of MobileMe? Would that make you feel better?

Hey, I don't like The Cloud either!

Now what about apps, dammit?

Let's get some lists going here!

i say that 99.9% of 3rd party Apps that don't already ship with the device are not really necessary and are mere fluff. for everything else, you can use Docs To Go to do 99.9% of all extraneous tasks. the shipped apps ought to be good enough for anybody.

disagree? give me an example of a critical app not shipped with the device whose critical function can't be replicated with a shipped app.

a. not really a critical app.
b. Sprint TV and video player with 8GB already included.

And where's YOUR list, twrock?

Gekko, you can claim that anything is "not a critical app" right up to phone functionality.

a Chinese Bible? WTF? now you're being unreasonable!

What do I need to buy a Pre? Money of course!

I'd LIKE to be able to have some of the stuff I use on my Axim, and some of the stuff I use on my Palm device(s). That doesn't mean their absence is a dealbreaker - I'm pretty handy at creating or finding solutions for stuff like this that suit me.

Note, I will do PPC/Palm format when there are both.

- Pocket Informant/DateBk
- Total Commander (PPC file management app - with 8GB of storage it will be handy)
- Phatnotes (PPC note app - far exceeds notepad)
- Some kind of money app like Ultrasoft Money (Palm) that syncs with desktop - Linux version gets bonus points as that is my primary OS these days.
- PIM sync. Please Please Please include Thunderbird as an app that it can sync to.
- Decent music/media player. Honestly I haven't found one out there yet, unless you include the iPhone for music.
- Something like PocketBreeze (PPC) that puts your main data (appointments, contacts, etc) in quick, easy reach....like just glancing at the screen.
- Weather app like PocketWeather (PPC) - since we have the cloud, it can update on it's own without sync.
- Secure It (Palm) to store and encrypt data that shouldn't be easily accessed.
- Pocket Bible/My Bible with the ability to use the existing databases (Laridian is pretty good about doing that), that doesn't need the cloud like their iPhone offering.
- Hey, since we have the cloud available, and 8GB of storage, how about some kind of cloud backup solution, a la SpiderOak (http://spideroak.com)?

Yeah, I don't need all these things, this is just some of the little things I would wish to have or equivalent functionality. Honestly, as long as I can transfer my existing data into something new, I don't necessarily care that it's a different program/application.

But, seriously, yeah....money (going back to college has made the words "disposable income" something I don't say as much these days).

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

a Chinese Bible? WTF? now you're being unreasonable!

Actually, no, I wasn't asking for that in my list. Look again.

However having said that, yes, it's really easy to get a free Chinese Bible for the current Palm OS. But then again, you have to have an OS that can handle Chinese characters to even look at it. The Chinese OS included in the Asian Palm products from the IIIxe era onward have been very adequate in this regard. (I wasn't using Palms before the IIIxe.)

I suspect that just about five minutes after Palm releases the Pre with support for Asian languages, the Chinese Bible will be available for a free download.


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

There are a few Palm apps I use all the time that can't be replaced by the core apps.
-CoPilot, a flight planning program
-The Athlete's Diary
-Smartlist To Go, a database program
-Bonsai, outlining and project tracker
-Daynotez

I really don't use documents to go that much but use the core PIM apps all the time.

Mike

If they had a webos pda, I'd buy it right away. Without even asking what the price is.

But I'm just not into the expensive phone thing - I can't afford the data plan that's most likely required (prove me wrong - please!).

To all you who want garnet app: just picture all your lame, ugly POS apps, right beside the slick webos apps. And get your stylus ready, 'cause the pre doesn't have one.

;-)

The Palm reps made it pretty clear that gaming was not at all a priority, though there'd be a few casual/lightweight games for the Pre.

"Despite the relative success of the competition (I didn't use the dreaded "i" word) & them claiming to have a portable gaming platform?" I asked

"Yes" was the reply.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Yeah - but I think they are saying that only because the OS currently doesnt have the capability to do gaming.

Can't do gaming? Why, we don't want gaming! Right......

I don't buy it for a minute. Palm deliberately is trying to close down a category that could sell more devices? Makes no sense at all. The original Palm OS (and it's OS 5 descendant) wasn't intended for gaming either - but I've got Doom 2 and DukeNukem on my Treo.

What do I need to buy a Pre?

Essentials:

1. MicroSDHC slot. For Palm to intentionally omit a feature that's been on nearly all Palm OS devices since the m500 line reeks of laziness and arrogance as they try to ape Apple.

2. Voice dialing (I refuse to pay extra for a feature that I had standard on a dumbphone as far back as 2001)

3. Higher capacity battery. HOPEFULLY Seidio will come to our rescue again but there's no reason to take a step backwards from the Treo Pro...again, Palm's greed and arrogance is showing.

4. Video recording. The TI chipset in this baby can crunch video with the best of 'em. For Palm to intentionally omit a feature all camera-enbabled Garnet devices have had for years just reeks of laziness and arrogance as they try to ape Apple.

5. Native YouTube support and/or Flash. Apple has set the standard for this.
Anything less is inexcusable in 2009. Again, if I had to pony up big $ for CorePlayer or Kinoma to watch YouTube videos, we're essentially back to the Garnet days of having to shell out $ to work around Palm's shortcomings.

6. Some kind of option for desktop sync. Whether due to paranoia or just not being "ready" to enter the Cloud, we've got to have some kind of barebones WebOS desktop component or at least Outlook sync capability.

Niceties but by no means essentials:

7. IR port

8. Stylus (in a future model, of course)

9. Garnet compatibility. This I WOULD be willing to pay extra for, though I'd likely just keep my TX around and be done with it.

10. More built-in storage. I'd rather have 256mb-512mb onboard & the flexibility of a 32gb card in the slot than 32gb onboard with no slot. I regularly back up to an separate SD card for security purposes.

I already am having frightening visions of an uncomfortably high TCO for the Pre. I'd rather have $399 upfront for a totally loaded device and be done with it instead of having to pay $299 for the device then immediately spend $100+ to bring the Pre's functional in full up to my Treo. It's not only a matter of avoiding aggravation but of principle as well. We cannot sit around high-fiving Palm as they slowly remove features from one device to the next and ask us to fork over more and more $.

Off the top of my head, I can forsee having to shell out $ to get YouTube, DTG, a higher capacity Seidio battery (assuming on is even available), some kind of video recorder app (since we KNOW the hardware can do it) and a voice dial app (or even worse, a Nuance-style monthly service charge). And that's not calculating in any kind of "Palm Me" cloud sync/backup/portal service that will come with its own monthly fee.

As Gekko likes to point out, all of these little expenses add up and I hate being nickel & dimed to death by all of these little "gotchas". I'm not a software pirate and will gladly pay for accessories or software I deem worthwhile but I don't want to be treated like a sucker.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

No, I didn't ask if "copy-n-paste was demoed" - I asked if there was cross-application copy-n-paste.

A critical app is when you use it a lot, rely on it and don't see or know an alternative. I think everyone left with a Palm OS device has 5-10 apps critical for himself, though it may seem unnecessary/expendable to most of the others. This is the main reason we haven't switched a long time ago. As far as I can see, nothing has changed on that notion.
My list would include:
-All standard PIMs AND syncing to Palm Desktop without a need for cloud connection. Hotsync and PD are old and orphaned, but they just work for me. Blindly. I never had a memo entry not found on my Palm after I synced. I love this feature, and was hoping Palm would replace this by something contemporary. I never felt the need for outlook and don't want to buy a license now (or pirate it, for that matter). Mac users have the advantage of iSync and iCal shipping with their computer, and it works! I've successfully set it up with an old Sony Ericcson and a 680. But as long as I don't switch to OS X, I don't see an alternative to Hotsync+PD.
-Keyring
-ToDo DA
-ReDo
-Plucker+Sunrise XP-not only can I read entire books offline, it renders the pages very well. I don't need always-on, fetching some sites in the morning and reading them when I find the time during the day is completely sufficient.
-Progect+PDesk
-MaTirelire
-Frodo- my first computer on my phone, lovely.
-LJP - how long will it take until someone writes an Emu for so many game consoles, providing me with the availability of thousands of games? Try Lemmings for SNES, for example! And it's free.
-Cryptdrive, pruss is a genius

Again, these are my personal needs, almost anyone else will probably disagree. This is what a developed ecosystem around an OS does, this is the userbase Palm just gave up. I wish them good luck finding a new one in the iphone/multimedia crowd.

just create a custom Word or Excel Doc and use Docs To Go and you can duplicate most if not all Third Party Apps. anything else can be accomplished with the shipped Apps, the Core-PIM, or the Browser (Google etc.).

I want things to be equally or more convenient. Creating Excel docs doesn't sound like a more convenient approach to me. I could use an analog notebook as well and accomplish most of the things I need, but that is not the point of the matter.
Again, things work smooth as they are for me. Why dumping EVERYTHING now? Just because it's old? As much as I want a gorgeous phone like that, beauty alone is not sufficient-I'd get one of those Razors then, I guess.

it's time to cut the cord and dump these extraneous antiquated legacy garnet apps and embrace 2009. it's time for a change.

I don't see the slightest difference to change to i.e. WinMo then, and could have done so a long time ago. If a switch is that easy for you, lucky guy. It's not a solution for everyone, though.

Yeah, everyone bookmark Dr. Gekko's Tech Advice there.

And wait for him to wail like a stuck pig when he gets a Pre and wants something for *himself*.

Ed Colligan emailed me, Gekko. He said, No Backup For You!

>>>Emacs can do everything, you know...no need for fancy GUIs!

There are times when I hate you Linux whizzards. This is one of them.

Because I don't have that.

> ...Because I don't have that.

If you want emacs, you can have it - name a platform, it's probably there.

I've used it since my CP/M days, I think. Certainly had it on the Amiga, and PC, and under SCO Unix, and Linux, and Solaris, and Windows, and...well...everywhere:

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/#Platforms

Go for it!

>>>Go for it!

And watch my PC become the plaything of every hacker on the Net. Noooo tx. I'll be content with being jealous.

1. sprint has the best 3G coverage.
2. cloud sync is good and local sync may be available too. stay tuned.
3. apple offers 8gb and 16gb. pre is 8gb. 16gb forthcoming.
4. voice dialing. - 3rd part add on probably coming. stay tuned.

1. Is the phone any good? probably. stay tuned.
2. just as intuitive as Garnet. tap the contact to dial.
3. Garnet emulation mode? any apps that sell will be ported over. otherwise, learn to love the one you're with.

They just want to get bought by Motorola or Dell before the smoke (of the smoke-n-mirrors...) clears.

>> (Gekko) "i say that 99.9% of 3rd party Apps that don't already ship with the device are not really necessary and are mere fluff."

I would agree.

However, the 1% that AREN'T fluff need that functionality on the new phone. AND, that "non-fluff" is slightly different for each person - which makes it beyond the 1% and not so predictable. If a necessary application won't run on the WebOS and the developer refuses to update it quickly or isn't around to update it - then I gotta carry around a TX just for those few "necessary" apps? Crazy, when the possibility of an emulator is so obvious.

Oh geez. TRANSCRIPT, please. I hate listening to frikkin MP3s. The Mossberg one already went over my quota for 2009. And it was just a little over 6 minutes!

Try the same WITH contract - Colligan already poopooed the idea of a cheap Pre.

We all get confused with fiscal and calendar years...

Palm milk their customer base???

OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joad, what'd I tell everyone to do last week when we posted the "Palm Handhelds Disappearing Fast" article right before CES? STOCK UP, STOCK UP, STOCK UP!

Heck, it might even make sense for Palm to keep the E2 or TX alive ad infinitum even after the Centro's gone just to have *SOMETHING* to point people to when they start crying the blues about no Garnet support on WebOS.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

I had high hopes, but had steeled myself for a rainbow-coloured Centro...

Neither good nor bad, really. Dojo is a JavaScript toolkit that makes development a bit faster and easier in AJAX (good for interactive and/or "rich web" apps if you don't like flash or silverlight).

Dojo's site is here: http://dojotoolkit.org/
You can see more on AJAX here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX

This means that programming a rich, interactive user experience on the Pre should be pretty easy with mojo/dojo (did that just sound like a power puff girls villian? ughh).

If I had to vote, I would say it's a good thing so long as it's done well without overhead that bogs things down. It certainly means Palm is serious about getting developers on this platform as this can only make dev easier, and the SDK instantly familiar to some existing devs.

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

where was the quote from, Gekko? And, yes, every 1st-gen product has bugs. Hell, EVERY product has bugs (this is a QA fact). Some products, though suffer much worse than others. If Palm put the thought, planning and attention to detail into the Pre/webOS that it appears they did, then the 1st-gen ride on the Pre should be smoother than many/most. Time will tell.

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

>>If Palm put the thought, planning and attention to detail into the Pre/webOS that it appears they did, then the 1st-gen ride on the Pre should be smoother than many/most. Time will tell.

On this, Palm's track record has been miserable, especially the past few years - and their willingness to admit problems is even worse.

Maybe this new phone is actually well tested and built, but that would be so far from Palm's proven track record that I would not bet on it. I would lay money on them having serious problems with the slider - *all* series of Tungsten T devices were badly designed and built - they fell apart in people's hands and Palm blamed their manufacturing problems on the users. Same with the malfunctioning Treo keyboards and audio jacks - to their credit they ARE not putting up a fight over replacing the bad jack phones, but any problem with the keyboard is blamed (sight unseen, even in person) on "dropping the phone" even when it's obviously never been dropped.

Well stated. I get sick of the marketing hype people telling *ME* why I don't need such-and-such thing they forgot or cheaped out on including.

The three reasons I'd never get an iPhone as they stand:

1) No removable battery
2) No removable flash
3) No hardware keyboard

The "Pre" handles 1&3, but #2 is such a glaring oversight that I (again) wonder if the geniuses over at Palm ever actually USE their phones. They brought out the Treo 650 as a replacement for the Treo 600 - and because of the intro of NVFS it couldn't even hold 60% of the Treo 600's data. And, Palm had the balls to LIE to their customers and say we were wrong about that (a week later they finally gave in and admitted it).

If this "cloud" can safely backup my CDMA "Pre" while traveling in a GSM-only country for a couple weeks, if I can quickly and safely selectively restore a previous file that has become corrupted, if I can quickly restore 4GB of music over the air without incurring excessive bandwidth fees... maybe I don't need removable flash.

Ryan and I fondled the X1 quite a bit last week. After months of anticipation I got to lay my paws on one!

I can say that the screen is absolutely gorgeous, the optical d-pad thingie works surprisingly well, performance fairly snappy considering WinMob (it just chugs through it with brute force) but the accelerometer tends to lag, and is fabulously crafted & built.

But the keyboard blows and it's too "angular". I like the gently rounded "pebble" shape of the Pre-it appears to be far more pocketable than the X1.

A shame it's GSM and WinMob only. But what a screen!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Sony-Ericsson, and I think it's the first. Prior to that, they did Symbian.

Of course the screen would be great:

1) It's very hi-res
2) The screen is Sony (probably from the CLIEs we never had...)

don't insult netbooks by saying the fooleo begat the netbook. apples and oranges, night and day. stop making it sound like palm invented the netbook or had ANYTHNG to do with it!!! look at the timeline! impossible!! i hate historical revisionism!!!!!!!!!

The Fooleo was designed by the same guy that thought a proprietary flash card slot would be more useful than an industry standard one. I went with the TRGpro instead of Handspring because 1) industry standard flash and 2) flashable ROM.

Time has proven the Springboard pretty stupid. You can only run ONE thing at a time when you rely on something like this. When I went to the intro of the first cell phone springboard, I was astounded that Handspring thought it was going to work. As soon as you want to use the slot for anything but a phone, you have to remove the Springboard and you have no phone.. Brilliant.

The Fooleo was similarly crippled - it could have been a Netbook, but it was weirdly designed to be nearly useless except as a $500 accessory for the Treo. With very little use as an accessory. I wish Palm would have been putting that money and attention into thinking through the Pre a little better:

1) WTF:"Pre" name?

2) No removable flash? Heckova job, Brownie!

3) No PalmOS emulator? I guess all that talk about the availability of thousands of apps for the Palm over 13 years was just marketing smoke, Palm?

It looks like the "Preh" will be a bigger success than the Fooleo would have been, but Palm definitely took their eyes off the ball on a few fronts when they spec'd it out..

Hey, Palm! How about a "Dump Your Crappy Treo and Centro" Trade-In Program???

For twenty bucks off, you can renew your contract on Gekko's soul! He goes cheap!

I never thought of it that way, but considering the way marketers think you may be onto something Kris.

Personally, I still don't think much of the name. I've always felt that Palm should resurrect the Pilot brand. Palm Pilot just has a nice ring to it.

I think it was a stupid name. For one, Palm Pre sounds like a Palm tree. It also realy confuses when you use pre/post along with the Pre in a sentence.

I am officially nominating the name "Preh" as in "eh" as the street name of this device. It's pretty, but missing some needed accessories (SD, emulator) that should obviously be standard.

It's like selling cars in Phoenix that are only available without air conditioning, with no option of ever installing it - or *maybe* having an aftermarket one available at some undetermined point in the future by some other enterprising manufacturer.

Gack - http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/2338-1.htm

No no no!

Giggle.

Re: Syncing
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/i-said-apple-sync-was-important-heres-proof/

But did any of you bother to read the Cloud Q&A with the HP guy?

Some of it I just don't understand because he doesn't give concrete examples of massive apps that require ad hoc computing capabilities (expansion/contraction), but one point stood out: Saving State.