Comments on: Apple Breaks webOS iTunes Sync, Again

Time to give it up.

I don't know - perhaps the fact that Palm is still chasing after itunes compatibility after all of this time - and this is making Palm look bad?

Tim seems convinced that Palm is going to win this. If that's true, maybe it is worth it to Palm to get the battle over with now. But it seems like a very poor business model to be relying on a kludgy hack that Apple is going to break at every opportunity for a selling point on your phone.

Darth, that's about as well said as I have read. Keep it up Palm, the walls will continue to fall in the future. Including your own ... :-o
Pat Horne

I suppose you'd advocate Microsoft locking Apple out of Windows, so Apple can't bootstrap on their hard work. Or Google disallowing third-party contacts sync.

Must this argument be had again?

Funny that you bitch about openness but I am sure you use closed software. (Windows? OS X? WebOS? Linux with Flash? Or maybe NVidia drivers? How about ATI drivers?) Educate yourself a bit.

Gekko wrote:

iPhones Sold = ~30,000,000

Pres Sold = ~300,000

Number of iPhone Customers who will switch to Pre because of iTunes = 0

Speaking as an iPod owner who happened to appreciate the Pre's compatibility with iTunes, I say bull****. The point is that I'm just as much an Apple customer as any iPhone user. I own two Mac Minis and two iPods. But I have never owned an iPhone and Apple's behavior makes me at just a little bit less likely to ever own one. So Apple's behavior does have consequences for me. True, I'm just an ordinary guy who probably looks more like John Hodgeman than Justin Long but then a guy who decided to stop buying GM cars back in 1980 was just one guy back then too and now he's one more reason why GM went bankrupt.

I bought my Mac Minis because they are small, easy to manage, and integrate easily into my existing network and talk to my Windows file server and laptops. Now I see Apple for the first time since I started using their products deliberately making their products harder for me to use. If Apple is as big a pain in the ass as Windows, what good is it?
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

abosco wrote:
GM's failure has less to do with sales and more to do with expenses. It's a misconception that people stopped buying their cars.

I'm not sure you can compartmentalize like that. Keeping sales in line with expenses is part of the challenge

As to the main point of the thread:

Palm understands that people don't switch to the Pre because of iTunes syncing. But they understand (as Apple does) that the inability to sync with iTunes may dissuade some iTunes users from switching to the Pre. They're going after the market of people with iPods, rather than iPhones. There's a certain set of people who think to themselves, "I like the things Pre does, but the iPhone can sync with iTunes." It's not a zero sum game, where Palm has to steal iPhone users. There are still plenty of cell phone users, believe it or not, who don't have iPhones.

"Everyone knew Detroit's reputation for insular, slow-moving cultures. Even by that low standard, I was shocked by the stunningly poor management that we found, particularly at GM, where we encountered, among other things, perhaps the weakest finance operation any of us had ever seen in a major company.

For example, under the previous administration's loan agreements, Treasury was to approve every GM transaction of more than $100 million that was outside of the normal course. From my first day at Treasury, PowerPoint decks would arrive from GM (we quickly concluded that no decision seemed to be made at GM without one) requesting approvals. We were appalled by the absence of sound analysis provided to justify these expenditures.

The cultural deficiencies were equally stunning. At GM's Renaissance Center headquarters, the top brass were sequestered on the uppermost floor, behind locked and guarded glass doors. Executives housed on that floor had elevator cards that allowed them to descend to their private garage without stopping at any of the intervening floors (no mixing with the drones).

In my relatively few interactions with chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, I found him to be likable, dedicated, and generally knowledgeable. But Rick set a tone of "friendly arrogance" that seemed to permeate the organization."

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/21/autos/auto_bailout_rattner_excerpt.fortune/?postversion=2009102109

jca666us wrote:
amazing - a day after iTunes locks out the pre - palms stock drops nearly 13%

investors are losing confidence in palm - about time.

The Pre's stock price probably has little to do with the lock-out. The day before Apple locked the Pre out of iTunes, Palm's stock also dropped. It's been a bad week for tech stocks generally, and Palm's not immune to that.

Obviously, it's been a bad month for Palm. We'll see how November goes with the release of the Pixi and the new OS update.

>The Pre's stock price probably has little to do with the lock-out.

Still, it's a contributing factor.

As is the excitement over droid - and the impact that will have on Pre sales.

Also, the (expected) lukewarm reception to the Pixi

Lastly Sprint's loss - which underscores how little the Pre did for Sprint.

Investors are beginning to wake up - hence the dramatic drop in Palm's stock price.

"Ray Rhodes gained notoriety for his no-nonsense approach and unusual ways of motivating his players. One such tactic was an analogy that compared losing a home game to burglars breaking into a man's house and raping his wife."

the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.

The bottom line is that Apple are assholes, standing in the way of consumer freedom and using one of the world's largest music retail outlets to prop up their own hardware business and making things just that little bit more difficult for people who want to shop there and have a seamless experience. Palm are flipping them the bird. Good on 'em.

ChiA:

Your money in your bank account is not a physical building, merely a file kept electronically on a computer... Palm keeps breaking into the bank manager's office to manage its iTunes savings account, even though all facilities are available via internet banking.

Another FAIL. Your digital media collection is NOT your bank account, and Apple are not the brave defenders of personal finances against black-hat hackers. They are simply making things more inconvenient for everybody except themselves.

If security was really the issue then Apple would be using a far more secure method of blocking than a half-assed, wrongheaded abuse of the USB ID chain that is easily circumvented within a matter of hours (and yes, it only takes that long) by anyone that puts their mind to it.

I'd like to see you defend Microsoft if they decided to block all non-MS hardware from directly interfacing with Windows.

If they wanna go that route of hardware lockouts, fine. They can cook up some secret sauce between iTunes and iPods that genuinely is their own intellectual property, and sue the pants off anyone who rips it off. But they can't piggyback on an open standard of hardware communication and then expect to be able to get away with perverting it in a way for which it was never intended to be used.

Palm are being consumer-friendly. Apple are not. That's "putting it simply".

Keep telling yourself that Tim - maybe one day you'll actually believe that - by that time Palm will no longer be in business.

There is Apple using USB - an open standard - to block out non-Apple hardware.

Which - as per the USB-IF - is perfectly fine. The people who define the USB standard have stated Apple is using the USB standard as intended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLqwG7_tURI

Tim Carroll wrote:
Gekko:
the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.

The bottom line is that Apple are assholes, standing in the way of consumer freedom and using one of the world's largest music retail outlets to prop up their own hardware business and making things just that little bit more difficult for people who want to shop there and have a seamless experience. Palm are flipping them the bird. Good on 'em.

Tim, "Apple are assholes" is your bottom line? That's not a very persuasive argument. Apple is a computer company behaving in a way as to maximize profits. "Asshole" has nothing to do with it.

OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Best laugh today! "Tim" and "persuasive argument" together - such a thing doesn't exist!!!!!!!

"Tim" and "grasping at straws" is a more apt description.

From the top.

1) If you shop at the iTunes store, one of the world's biggest retail music outlets and the ONLY place to get certain content, your only way to directly sync your purchases in the most convenient manner is if you own Apple hardware - despite the fact there is no technical issue that makes this necessary.

2) This behaviour is blatantly anti-consumer.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

Gekko:

this is America. we believe in the rule of law here.

Good thing no laws are being broken then, eh?

Bosco makes the point "why would Apple change?" And he's right, why would they? But does the fact that this is good for Apple's profits mean we should all be cheering when one company throws up arbitrary technological roadblocks specifically designed to get in the way of interoperability, which is something that benefits us all?

Hell freaking no!! Unless you're batshit-crazy insane, like the troll-bot. The rest of you are just horribly misguided. I look forward to the corporate-executive's-wet-dream future you all seem to so eagerly welcoming, where you can only shop at particular places if you own properly branded hardware.

I guess resorting to personal attacks and name calling when you fail to win your argument isn't crazy from your viewpoint.

If you shop at the iTunes store, one of the world's biggest retail music outlets and the ONLY place to get certain content

So each music outlet has it's exclusives but you can get most music from most online outlets.

your only way to directly sync your purchases in the most convenient manner

The consumer is free to consume from any store and consume the music on any device of their choosing. This is what you brand anti-consumer behaviour.

You've singled out convenient sync for iTunes but where's the convenient solution for syncing Palm Pres with Zune Marketplace or Realmusic?

There may be no technical issue preventing a Pre from syncing with iTunes but Apple simply doesn't want the hassle of dealing with any issues which may arise. Just as there's no technical issue preventing me from walking into your workplace but you may not want the hassle of me being there!

one company throws up arbitrary technological roadblocks specifically designed to get in the way of interoperability

Are you referring to the same company, Apple, which published the open letter pleading for the music industry to remove DRM so music can be played on any device?
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

Tim Carroll said

I look forward to the corporate-executive's-wet-dream future...where you can only shop at particular places if you own properly branded hardware.

Well I'm happy with the present: my iTunes and Amazon MP3 purchases are loaded onto my Mac/Windows laptop, Linux media centre/NAS and Windows Mobile smartphone. I can transfer my music between them at will, don't even need iTunes to do it.

That's all there is to it.
provoked the nutcases...
you're batshit-crazy insane, like the troll-bot. The rest of you are just horribly misguided.

Oh the party's only just begun and you've become so grumbly and foul-mouthed already...
Dear oh dear!

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=global+thermonuclear+war+game+movie&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=SOvsSojTLoTssQPti6X1Aw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQqwQwAA#

Matthew.
Tech Center Labs

Gekko wrote:

in America we believe in a rule of law. we believe in protecting intellectual property.

MSFT believes it's in their best interest to keep their software standards open to other manufacturers. i think typically, Apple agrees with this and does it as well. but in this particular case, Apple believes iTunes is a proprietary system for their own devices and they choose to keep it closed to competitor devices and that's their right.

It's very similar to the way Microsoft never bothered to sue Sun for giving OpenOffice the ability to open its proprietary Office file formats or Opera Software for spoofing Internet Explorer's User Agent string. There is nothing sacred about patents and copyrights (the US constitution allows them to promote the progress of science and the arts but puts limits on their length). And things like file formats and identification strings fall way short of what we normally consider "intellectual property."
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

Well I'm happy with the present: my iTunes and Amazon MP3 purchases are loaded onto my Mac/Windows laptop, Linux media centre/NAS and Windows Mobile smartphone. I can transfer my music between them at will, don't even need iTunes to do it.

Mate, you are a nerd. You are posting comments on Palm Infocenter. I too am a nerd and have no problem with managing my media with the software of my choosing.

My little sister, or my Mum, both who buy music off iTunes regularly, are not. So far as they are concerned, iTunes is where the music "lives". iTunes is where they go to find it and iTunes is what they use to manage it. Palm know this. Anyone with half a clue knows this. The average computer user, even in the 21st century, is still not really capable of managing multiple media software packages. It's condescending and patronising to many to say it, but it's still true for the vast majority.

Thus, direct iTunes sync is the absolute best method for managing iTunes-purchased media. Why do you think Apple are so jealously guarding it?

You ask why I'm not making similar complaints about other stores? Because they aren't deliberately breaking interoperability. If Palm implemented a Zune Store sync feature and MS deliberately broke it I would call shenanigans on that, too. They haven't, so I'm not.

gmayhak:

We should all get behind Tim on this, if he can get Apple to come around maybe he'll be able to straighten out the Department of Defense next!

Your sarcasm notwithstanding Gary, I really couldn't care less whether or not a bunch of Apple fanboys and embittered Palm haters (who pop up on PIC with depressing regularity) from the Internet - whom I've never actually met in reality and likely never will - agree with me. I just find your arguments ridiculous. You are championing arbitrary technological lockouts. You are championing the limitation of your own freedoms. WTF is wrong with you all?

That was a rhetorical question, by the by. I'm done here. At least until this argument crops up again when Palm re-enable the sync...
Sometime PIC blogger
Treo 270 --> Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Centro
I apologise for any and all emoticons in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.

Maybe you should teach your mother and sister how to drag and drop files they purchase from itunes.

Thus, direct iTunes sync is the absolute best method for managing iTunes-purchased media.

It's not actually the best way - it's the most convenient way for a class of users.

Why do you think Apple are so jealously guarding it?

Because they wrote it?!?!?!?! They own the software and that's their right.

Palm are looking for a free ride - and need to look elsewhere.

Tim, I'm now an Apple fanboy and Palm hater because I have the boldness to disagree with you?

No. Because every single comment I've seen you make here over the last few years has been - to a fault - unremittingly negative.

Again, I don't care whether or not the Internet disagrees with me.

And this is the crux of the problem

Palm won't achieve this by using a competitor's product who's unwilling to support Palm.

It's not *Palm* who are using iTunes. It is iTunes customers - one of the largest userbases in desktop media software - who are using iTunes. Palm is just letting them keep doing so and making it easier for them to switch devices, and that is Apple's problem. They don't want it to be easy for people to switch.

It is completely unnecessary for Palm to come up with their own system. Right now you have the choice between iTunes, Windows Media Player, Winamp, DoubleTwist, plain old drag-and-drop or any other software you like that supports syncing with USB mass storage (which is basically everything except iTunes). What on Earth could Palm bring to the table that hasn't already been done? What would be the point of them expending resources on developing and maintaining desktop media software of their own when computer users have all made their choices a long time ago?

This is Apple's problem, not Palm's. Apple are the one who are standing in people's way. Apple are the way going out of their way to break something that would otherwise work perfectly fine. It's their right, but anyone who supports them and isn't an Apple shareholder or executive is insane because you are essentially advocating for Apple to take something away.

What possible harm could Pre sync do to people who don't own Pres? Nothing. People drone on and on about how Apple doesn't want to have to support third-party players. But they don't have to! They already have clearly stated on their own support pages that they don't do this. Palm are the ones who have actually done the work to make iTunes sync with the Pre. It costs Apple nothing to let it continue.

Persisting with hacking into a competitor's product implies they're unable to do so.

How ridiculous. Of course they're able to do so. But it is a stupid waste of time and resources on their part, so they're not. Good on them. Which sync software that people choose to use with their mobile devices should be the user's choice, not Apple's.

Oh, and....

Are you referring to the same company, Apple, which published the open letter pleading for the music industry to remove DRM so music can be played on any device?

Yes. I am. Where's their letter pleading to the movie industry about video DRM, I wonder? Hmmmmm. Oh wait. Jobs has a seat on the board of Disney, doesn't he....

That letter was commendable, but it was nothing that many other influential people hadn't already been arguing for years and certainly not indicative of any wider attitude towards openness on Apple the company's part.

bosco:

Would it be wonderful for every companyto cooperate in wonderful harmony?

And here's where people seem to be missing the point. This is not about Palm and Apple cooperating in perfect harmony, holding hands and singing kum-ba-yah around a campfire whilst they share a Vegan meal...

This is about Apple denying its own customers an option. Your choice of hardware shouldn't matter when you go to sync with iTunes, a massive retail entity in its own right and the only place you can buy certain content.

Yes, you still have access to your content. See my earlier point about your average non tech-savvy user not knowing this, or where to find it. And that's a massive portion of the iTunes userbase, by the way: think how many people own iPods now.

As for the point about RIM's solution, you already know my answer to that. Palm don't need to and more importantly users don't need to waste time and effort designing and installing extra software just to enable something that is built into iTunes already.

You're completely insane if you don't think Apple is in favor of removing DRM from movies.

Maybe they are. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that. Where's their public advocacy of it? Where's Jobs' catty open letter?

And here's where people seem to be missing the point. This is not about Palm and Apple cooperating in perfect harmony, holding hands and singing kum-ba-yah around a campfire whilst they share a Vegan meal...

These companies are COMPETITORS. What motivation does Apple have to hand Palm a free lunch? Palm has access to the database. However, they do NOT have permission to piggyback off of Apple's device sync solution.

And I'm calling shenanigans on your assessment of RIM's solution. Customers clearly use it, and it's easy. The only person who isn't advocating for this is you, since you're clearly showing your true colors as a blatant Palm fanboy.

Palm has to develop their own sync solution. Apple is not allowing them a free ride off of their hard work. End of story.

By the way, Styletap was pro-consumer and choice, but Palm shutting it down on Windows Mobile was clearly anti-consumer. How do you feel about that?

Hahahahaha - talk about splitting hairs.

Palm are the ones advertising itunes compatibility - they're attempting to use it to their advantage - without the cooperation of the company who owns itunes.

It is iTunes customers - one of the largest userbases in desktop media software - who are using iTunes. Palm is just letting them keep doing so and making it easier for them to switch devices, and that is Apple's problem. They don't want it to be easy for people to switch.

What nonsense is this? People can switch as easily as they like - they just have to stop using itunes. Apple's software, apple's rules.

If Palm doesn't like it, perhaps they should write their own version of itunes.

It is completely unnecessary for Palm to come up with their own system. Right now you have the choice between iTunes, Windows Media Player, Winamp, DoubleTwist, plain old drag-and-drop or any other software you like that supports syncing with USB mass storage (which is basically everything except iTunes). What on Earth could Palm bring to the table that hasn't already been done? What would be the point of them expending resources on developing and maintaining desktop media software of their own when computer users have all made their choices a long time ago?

If that's the case, then why do they persist going after itunes? Because itunes has two things Palm lacks: mindshare and marketshare.

This is Apple's problem, not Palm's.

It's Palm's problem because Palm are continuing to push this issue. The Pre's not big news anymore, so they need something to keep Palm in the news.

It costs Apple nothing to let it continue.

So Nostradamus, you know every product which Apple is going to release in the next x years? Doubtful. You don't know what direction Apple will take itunes in; Apple doesn't want nor need to be shackled to Palm's need for itunes compatibility.

If Palm wants access to itunes, why don't they license access?

How ridiculous. Of course they're able to do so. But it is a stupid waste of time and resources on their part, so they're not. Good on them. Which sync software that people choose to use with their mobile devices should be the user's choice, not Apple's.

Apple makes the software; their rules. If Palm doesn't like it, they need to be industrious; not lazy.

Gekko wrote:

don't let hatred blind you.

Could ya' vague that up for us a bit?
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

Your choice company is as crooked and profit-seeking as all of the other publicly traded companies are.... Oh wait, yes, I do understand. Your opinion is, "Yeah! Stick it to Apple!" and nothing more. That's why you support Palm in this useless fight while nearly everyone else is on the other side.

Haven't I made it clear yet? I am not on Palm's side here. I am and always have been on the user's side. 'cause that's what I am. A user. And in this particular case, Palm has sided with me, not the other way around.

You know I don't particularly like Apple. This issue is just one example of the many, many reasons why I'll never use their products where I can avoid it. My opinion is not "stick it to Apple", although I'm not loathe to admit I love it whenever anyone does so.

My opinion is "stick up for the user and the consumer". Palm may only be an ally of convenience in this particular instance, but since they're standing up for the right thing, I see no reason not to support them.

Oh... and "everyone else"? I count

*ChiA, notorious bitter Palm guy who hasn't had a good word to say about them in years;
*You, nastebu, gmayhak, and the troll-bot: iPhone owners all (hanging out at PIC, for some bizarre reason);
*Gekko, who just loves to shit-stir. (Which makes the Lizardman an honorary Australian, whether he realises it or not.)

But again. I couldn't give a toss whether or not the entire world disagreed with me. 'Cause they'd be wrong, and I would still be right. :p

No; Palm is siding with Palm - as their interest is to gain users.

You know I don't particularly like Apple.

So you're biased - there's a shock! :) Impartiality never comes into play.

My opinion is "stick up for the user and the consumer". Palm may only be an ally of convenience in this particular instance, but since they're standing up for the right thing, I see no reason not to support them.

Perhaps because they're way of going about this is - oh I don't know - WRONG?

If Palm were on a crusade for the user (which they aren't), then why don't they petition every music store out there (except itunes) to see if they can be allowed to sync with them?

This isn't some holy war or crusade for interoperability. They are looking for a quick fix to siphon away users to pump up the Pre.

But again. I couldn't give a toss whether or not the entire world disagreed with me. 'Cause they'd be wrong, and I would still be right.

Famous last words.

In a perfect world, Palm would create a desktop sync solution with iTunes, but guess what... everytime iTunes was updated I am sure the desktop solution would have to be updated so we would be back to this game

No they wouldn't. The simple sync program that Palm would have to create would access documented, open XML files. Basically, it would be pulling it's music library from the same place that iTunes does. In this way, it operates completely independently of iTunes, but still accesses its database. It is set up like this on purpose for third party companies to access.

Unfortunately, Palm was pressed for time and resources, and they had intricate knowledge of how iTunes worked from the inside since they apparently only employ former Apple workers at Palm HQ, so they chose to backdoor it.

If you read (relatively) neutral news sites, you'll see that sentiment has turned against Palm in this issue because it is simply causing inconsistency. Apple has already shown they won't change course. Palm needs to follow RIM's lead and develop their own sync soluion. There is literally no argument against this. It's undeniably the best solution.

It's not bizarre and I don't have an iPhone. I have an iPod touch 1st generation, a Centro, a Lifedrive, a Tx, a m505, a couple Tungsten t, a palm pilot, a palm III, a work pad, a Visor and a dozen Vx.
The Centro was the last good thing to come out of Palm!

Gary

Tech Center Labs

Apple is on the *wrong side of history* here.

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

Mike, It's THEIR *organizational* software for THEIR hardware. You sound like the kids on the app store thinking everything should be free for everyone, not giving a shit how much effort someone else has put into it.

Gary
Tech Center Labs

The FI are clearing houses for transactions. They do not provide hardware as they used to.

i see iTunes as a data base anyone can access with their own hardware. All Palm needs to someone to make the connection to ITunes possible. An opportunity to help the Palm customer and Palm now exists.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

#1:

Even worse, however, is deliberately breaking someone else's compatibility.

It's not compatible if it breaks every time Apple updates itunes. :)

Compatibility can be gotten via syncing with itunes xml data - anything else is a half-assed hack that deserves to break.

That for me is truly beyond the pale, and seems incredibly disrespectful to any iTunes Store customer that might want to use different hardware.

Any hardware can be used with any non-drm'ed files purchased via itunes. What's disrespectful is your lack of understanding.

#2

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

When was itunes open source? It's owned by Apple and Apple dictates what it syncs with. Palm doesn't wish to abide by the rules, then Palm's users must suffer the consequences.

The point that I've been making (ad nauseum) is that from the consumers/user's point-of-view, it doesn't actually matter how Apple see themselves. With such massive success as they've seen with the iTunes Music Store come certain responsibilities to consumers. Whether they like it or not, they are now the biggest music retailer in the US and one of the biggest in the world, and I believe that continuing to tie the software used to purchase that music to their own hardware line is an underhanded tactic ill-befitting the market leader.

The only people that Apple has responsibilities to is it's shareholders. Just like any other company, it would shed those customers in a second if it could deliver more to the shareholders by doing so.

Now, with that in mind, Apple's strategy has been to deliver an integrated solution to it's customers. But even there, Apple would rather take a 20% margin on an iPod or more than a 10% margin on a few dollars for the songs or albums.

Most hardware or consumer electronic companies would kill for a 20% margin. Apple delivers it without sweating.

Songs are secondary. Apple really wants you to buy an iPod.

Besides opening up the complete back end with the database, let's not forget that no one before Apple could sell music online profitably.

I'm a Palm guy from way back, I still use a TX. But if Palm has to make a parasite in order to work, it makes me wonder about what else they'll spoof when they see the opportunity. It also makes me wonder about their customers left in the lurch. Not to mention their stockholders who keep losing money.

abitrary technological lockouts that have no good reason to exist

Neither Palm nor Apple are charities but Palm wants free access to Apple's software so it can sell a Palm Pre instead of an Apple iPhone.

that sounds a good enough reason for a lock out - technological or not.

There seems to be an opportunity to have iTunes as a central music data base that anyone can access. How much would it cost to make the access point for the Palm Pre? Is this cheaper than the patches caused by a vendor that wants iTunes accessed just not through their work? Is Apple pushing Palm to innovate a solution? Does the solution help Palm customers and Palm?

Any thoughts?

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

Yes all this sounds great, sound is good for we-com interaction.

Now we must focus on moving sound into positive change that we can all bank on to offer more interactive choices with people that want to be part of a democratically built we-com network.

We will always have people that choose a hat to earn a living that is their choice. All we want is to build with people that value hats on their heads too with better paying jobs that help pay for our advanced economies with all our choices.

We can help the inverted hat people too without giving up all our choices ... a win-win. Inverted hat people have contributed to our thoughts and we must share the wealth with them too. They do not seem to want drugs they seem to want access to knowledge in their language or access to the knowledge in other languages.

If we can create we-com we can find solutions to homelessness too … win-win. Yes that will put homeless shelters out of business, the only business one would be happy to see closed. If people have a home the moon become a goal and a destination where one could choose to interact with a we-com virtual wallet too.

0 is only of value in a weightless environment. Our freedom to choose is free because people have made tough choices in our past. The price of freedom is priceless … people created freedom; people will defend freedom by innovating thoughtfully and at times selflessly (ffffff for free).

BaalthazaaR wrote:
Good Lord, the lizardman has lost it.

There's a fine line between parody and lunacy.
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

We've rattled you enough for you to start name calling (fanboy, troll-bot etc)

I've been calling you Apple-defending idiots names forever, and not just in this thread. Why? Because you're, well, idiots, as evidenced by questions like these....

- whether Palm formally approached Apple to create iTunes sync?

Of course they didn't, because (1) the answer would have been "no", and (2) they don't have to. Apple are using USB for iTunes sync - an open standard - and they give the software away for free to anyone who wants it. It's the user's choice whether or not they wish to sync their Pre with iTunes. Not Apple's, and not Palm's.

- why Palm can't or won't make a "seamless store and sync experience" of their own?
Nokia after all, has the Nokia Music Store.

Nokia is a technological giant with billions in the bank which it can afford to waste on ridiculously stupid ventures like trying to compete with one of the world's largest music retailers with their own proprietary solution.

Palm, on the other hand, has clearly stated on multiple occasions that their goal with webOS sync is to allow the user to sync with whatever they want. The "seamless sync experience" is called Synergy, and it aggregates all your information on your mobile device no matter where it came from. Hence you can use iTunes, or Windows Media Player, or Winamp, or whatever the hell you want to manage your music.

Apple feels there's good enough reason and Apple unlike Palm, put the effort into the purchase, ownership and maintenance of iTunes. Note the current update added new features to Apple's products.

Palm wants all the benefit of iTunes without making any contribution towards it.

Again, you totally miss the point. This is not about Palm enjoying the benefits of iTunes sync. This is about the users deciding which software they want to use. Palm is just giving them the option, and they would be foolish to ignore iTunes which is massively popular, and they would be foolish to waste resources they don't have on developing an iTunes sync client they don't need to and more to the point, shouldn't have to

It really comes down to this.

*Palm is giving iTunes customers another choice.
*Apple are taking it away.

Putting it simply.

Tim Carroll wrote:

It really comes down to this.

*Palm is giving iTunes customers another choice.
*Apple are taking it away.

Putting it simply.

Umm, not exactly. Have you read the iTunes EULA?

Bottom line, if you don't play by Apple's rules, they don't want you in the sandbox.

That's pretty much STANDARD PRACTICE in the industry. They don't give you the software, they give you a license to use the software under their terms.

Not only is Palm spoofing the USB connection, but they are intentionally telling their customers to break the iTunes EULA.

No software company can afford to overlook that.

Umm, not exactly. Have you read the iTunes EULA?

Bottom line, if you don't play by Apple's rules, they don't want you in the sandbox.

That's pretty much STANDARD PRACTICE in the industry. They don't give you the software, they give you a license to use the software under their terms.

Not only is Palm spoofing the USB connection, but they are intentionally telling their customers to break the iTunes EULA.

Who cares? EULA's are bullshit, frankly. Nobody ever reads them or cares what is contained within. And I highly doubt Apple are going to start suing people for syncing with a Pre...

And again. Who cares what Apple wants? This is about what users want.

Nevermind the fact that it would solve the whole issue. No, that's fine, Tim. Keep going, you're doing great.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

Who cares? EULA's are bullshit, frankly. Nobody ever reads them or cares what is contained within. And I highly doubt Apple are going to start suing people for syncing with a Pre...

And again. Who cares what Apple wants? This is about what users want.

Except that the entire multibillion dollar software industry is based on licensing software, not selling it.

Without those licenses, there is no way to make a profit. Or even to cover costs. And that means no iTunes Store, period.

Without the iTunes EULA, there is no iTunes Store EULA. And without that, there is no way the record labels will provide content. They had a hard enough time giving up DRM.

It's about mutual exchange. The users get something unique from Apple, Apple makes a profit on hardware. Unless Apple makes a profit on their terms, there's no reason for it to stay in business. Unless Apple provides something unique for the price, there is no reason for the customers to keep using iTunes.

Apple isn't draconian, they've opened up everything except the iTunes software itself and the iTunes conduits. They've even documented how to access the iTunes library. Try finding another tech company that did that willingly.

To keep it's shareholders happy, Apple has to make a profit. To make a profit, Apple has to sell something that customers want. To keep the iTunes Store open, Apple has to accept the conditions from the record labels.

Again, before Apple opened the iTunes Store, no one was selling music profitably online. Selling yes, but the companies were losing money on each sale. You demand that Apple do what you want, but you forget, before Apple, no one COULD do it. And today, the companies that are successfully selling music online are using Apple's model to do it. DRM got dropped not because of the letter from Jobs, but because the record labels wanted to undersell Apple through other channels.

If it were ANY other company that had pulled this off, I'd tell you the same thing only with their name instead of Apple.

The one thing that Apple has said is that it doesn't want any non-Apple devices syncing through iTunes. It hasn't sealed the library in some proprietary format. It hasn't done an iPod authentication code.

As I see it, the only reason Apple has to take a more closed architecture with iTunes is Palm.

with Al Gore on the Board? with BHO in the Oval Office?

what say you Apple-loving pablum-puking liberals out there?

November 6, 2009
* Analysis by: GLG Expert Contributor
* Analysis of: Blackberry Offers Low-Hanging Fruit (WSJ Thursday, 11/5/2009)
* Published at: wsj.com

Summary

The release of the Motorola's Droid Smartphone was predicted to impact Apple's iPhone business. This article points out that it is Research in Motion ("RIM's") Blackberry business that is threatened.

The article provides facts and figures on the iPhone, Android devices on impact on RIM's Blackberry business and market share. And predicts a continuing revenue decline.
Analysis

The financial numbers are further evidence of what has been happening in the Smartphone market in the last year. RIM, who once was the innovator in handset market, is not keeping up with the products released by Apple, Palm and the Android developers. And it is now impacting RIM's market share and possibly its revenue stream.

One must wonder is going on at RIM. It is in a reactive mode and trying to catch up.

The Blackberry Storm was intended to be RIM's competitor to Apple's iPhone. The initial release of the Storm was not well received in the marketplace. The product was unstaple and got poor reviews. While RIM has addressed the issues, it lost time and creditability.

Apple did a tremendous job in releasing the iPhone to market. It was Apple's first try at creating a cell phone. I expected growing pains in creating a mature handset. A risky venture that could impact Apple's reputation for developing quality products. While there were issues, Apple addressed them quickly, without damage to its reputation.

Added to this is Apple's strategy in developing and releasing iPhone applications. It was innovative and well implemented. Apple provides a simple iPhone development toolkit, developer's program and application store. While there are issues to iron out with the developer's program, there are currently about 100,000 applications developed for the iPhone to date (up from 35,000 in April).

In comparison, RIM's Blackberry development program is complex, reactive and playing catch up with Apple. RIM offers three different development platforms for different skill levels, plus a developer's program and application store. Currently they offer approximately 5000 applications.

Add to the equation, Palm's participation in this marketplace and the emergence of the Android consortium. It shows a dynamic and crowded market that needs to get settled.

RIM can respond and recover to the threats to its business. But we have not seen it to date.

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Has-RIM-become-the-AOL-of-the-handset-market--44660.html

Tim Carroll wrote:
You miss my point on EULAs. I realise that for rubbish legalistic reasons, companies are forced to include these worthless things with software. My point is that 99.99999% of users never read them and don't care about them. If they have that software installed on their machine, they consider it theirs to do with as they please, as with any physical good they'd purchase from a bricks n mortar store - a view I happen to hold myself.

*shrugs* It's not a physical item. Profitability depends on copyright and those pesky EULAs. You may not like it, but it is a contract. Blame Bill Gates and his hired gun lawyers for making the software industry possible.

Yes, Apple did good things for the sale of music online. (I hope one day they do the same for video.) I'll gladly acknowledge that. But they are now running one of the world's biggest retail music stores, and they don't allow access to the built-in sync client in order to boost sales of their own hardware line. That's not a "lock-in", but it is a sleazy tactic nonetheless and one I cannot support. Deliberately breaking compatibility is far, far worse.

Apple never promised to open it up. The size of the store has nothing to do with it. If Apple provides what MOST people want, that is what makes the store "bigger." Palm took it on themselves to pry it open. At best, that's impolite. At worst that is theft. Either way, it puts Palm on the shady side of the ethics line.

You should have realised by now I'm not gonna budge from this position. Can we kill this thread now please? I'm sure it'll crop up again when the sync is re-enabled... we can rehash everything again then ad nauseum.

Yep, that was obvious about thirty or forty posts back. I just wanted to clarify some things about business practices.

I'm playing to the audience, man. Sometimes that's the best you can do.

Tim, you're trying to sell bullshit and I don't think anyone is buying it. Palm has no right to GIVE something that doesn't belong to them! iTunes was developed by Apple, not Palm. iTunes belongs to Apple, not Palm. iTunes is a strategic part of Apples iPod marketing strategy.
I've supported Palm and the the Palm community for years but this kind of crap puts the Palm we all knew to shame. It's all about the x-Apple guys trying to stick it in the ass of their x-employer.

Gary
Tech Center Labs

I am annoyed with _both_ companies, but as someone in a family with a Pre, an iPod, and an iPhone, I am /more/ annoyed with Apple. Philosophically, I prefer the idea working to open up things to more uses over working to keep things closed down and limited.

Sure, it's within Apple's rights to update their software however they want to, but spending resources to break the Pre sync just strikes me as childish and spiteful. I want a music sync solution "just works" and it does "just work" until the next time that Apple decides to break it.

Does anyone here know if the Blackberry Media Sync solution breaks with iTunes updates?
-alan

Open communication between software *designed* to be open. Itunes was never designed to be open to anything but ipods.

If Palm do wind up getting permanently blocked, they'll surely make their own sync client. iTunes is too big to ignore. But why settle for second-best unless you absolutely have to?

So you're conceding itunes is good!