Centro is the Summers 4th Most Popular Smartphone
It's no secret that Palm's most recent Palm OS device, the Centro, is a popular smartphone. Launched in October of 2007, the Centro is available in numerouous colors and in nearly every flavor of GSM and CDMA both domestically and in a wide variety of international markets. The Centro itself recently passed the 2 million units sold mark in late July and there's no end in sight to the device's success, if the latest NPD report numbers showing it as the country's #4 smartphone are accurate.
CNET is reporting today that the latest NPD sales figures from June through August 2008 indicates Apple's new iPhone 3G in first place, followed by the BlackBerry Curve, BlackBerry Pearl and then Palm's Centro in fourth place.
Given the current Centro's success, Palm has so far remained quite mum regarding the possibility of a successor device. Nevertheless, two new Centro colors, "Rose" and "Green" have been pictured and are suspected to still be in the works. The latest rumors claim they may hit Sprint on or around October 19th, perhaps alongside the rumored 1.08 ROM update for Sprint Centros.
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RE: new slogan
And the beat goes on.
The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com
RE: new slogan
can someone photochop/post this centro into a 480x320 in actual size (with thumboard) so we can see if it's viable?
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/centro-review.jpg
i would do it myself but this is beyond my area of expertise.
"The important thing isn't having a big circle of competency, its knowing where its perimeter is." - Warren Buffett
RE: new slogan
Think Blackberry Pearl, part II...
RE: new slogan
"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: new slogan
Oh, and I didn't attempt "actual size" since I had previously done the harder work on the screen using the red Centro pic. And I think "actual size" will be relative to your monitor's size and resolution anyway. I suppose you can try stretching or shrinking the picture yourself while you hold your Centro up to it (second from the left).
"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: new slogan
twrock - thanks! that's what i was looking for. i'd definitely buy the phone on the far right over the regular centro. it should be very easy for palm to produce. i'm not sure they feel it's a necessary or viable design though.
RE: new slogan
The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com
RE: new slogan
Just a few reasons off the top of my head:
1. Palm's only prior efforts as "mechanical engineers" were mildly disasterous at worst and underwhelming at best (Tungsten T/T2/T3 + Zire 71 slider). And those Tungstens were the so-called "BMW of PDAs" and flagship devices, not bottom-feeder, mass market, heavily subsidized playground handsets like the Centro.
2. Assuming a Centro 2 exists and/or is in the works, Palm would not want to lose any of the Centro 1's main features (small,slim, cheap).
3. The razor-thin margins on Centro 1 are likely just now starting to improve. Why would Palm want to sink R&D $ and fabrication $ into a device that people will expect to sell for at $99 or less at launch and be free w/ contract after a few months? If there's going to be any Centro 2, think a mild refresh of the current Centro with a few basic styling cues and maybe microUSB borrowed from the Treo Pro.
4. Palm is terrified to move beyond the 240x240 & 320x320 SSS (small square screen) + small QWERTY thumboard, as the past 5 years of Treo/Centro will show.
5. Palm has no interest or incentive to spend a PENNY on Garnet, especially optimizing it for a one-off 320x480 device. The phone app, which is hardcoded to the GSM & CDMA radios, would have to be rewritten entirely, plus all of the telephony-related apps & menus likely don't support anything higher than 320x320.
6. Just a handul of developers still support 320x480 Palm OS PDAs. And whatever Garnet 5.5 enhacements would be made, most of those legacy 320x480-friendly apps written for the T3/T5/TX would likely not work this time around. Lots of kiddies would end up with broken/ugly apps that only support 320x320. That's not hip!
Plus, Garnet's 320x480 DIA is designed for a Graffiti input box. How would this be treated on a device with a keyboard? If Palm is shuttering the MyPalm & e-mail support to save a few bucks, just imagine what costs headaches would result from masses of frustrated teenyboppers trying to make a "t" under G2.
7. Styli (according to Apple & RIM) are sooooo 1990s. Far too much work/money would be required to make the Centro's tiny screen & UI fingertip-friendly.
Let's face it folks. Garnet is dead, Nova ain't coming, Palm is almost dead and small square screens are here to stay!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
i still think it could be easily done from a technological standpoint, but i'm not sure expending any of palm's limited resources on it makes business sense given the probable limited long-term impact on market share. they already did 480x320 for other devices, and they could have the treo/centro "favorites buttons" menu automatically come up on the bottom for any app that doesn't support 480x320 (instead of the soft graffiti area).
hkk - boy, you're turning into a really jaded SOB on palm! i think you've now surpassed me!
RE: new slogan
Who cares - Palm doesn't design nor build their devices anymore anyway!
> ...2. ...(small, slim, cheap)...
All Palm cares about is mass sales. A flipphone could give Palm that. Kerplack!
> ...3. The razor-thin margins on Centro 1 are likely just now starting to improve...
Okay.
> ...4. Palm is terrified to move beyond the 240x240 & 320x320 SSS (small square
> screen) + small QWERTY thumboard, as the past 5 years of Treo/Centro will show...
Perhaps.
> ...5. Palm has no interest or incentive to spend a PENNY on Garnet, especially
> optimizing it for a one-off 320x480 device...
I humbly proof-free disagree.
> ...6. Just a handul of developers still support 320x480 Palm OS PDAs
Okay.
> ...7. Styli (according to Apple & RIM) are sooooo 1990s...
Who said anything about stylii...or touchscreen?
> ...Let's face it folks. Garnet is dead...
Palm cannot throw away a free OS. It's not dead, just aimed at the ever-decreasing-functionality consumer set. Feature-phone anyone?
RE: new slogan
2. But even if Palm is right now prepping such a device for release, how can they hope to stop the juggernaut that is RIM's Pearl flip?
3. Continuing the point above, I am SURE a flip phone would attract quite a bit of attention to Palm. But the question is can Palm live with the brutally small margins on a "$99 or free" flip smartphone?
4. I'll stick to my guns on this one
5. Ditto
6. ....
7. Let's see....what kind of non-essential "fluff" could Palm rip out of the Centro and still call it a Centro? IR port (not a huge savings), the microSD card (not a good idea given Garnet's pitiful onboard storage/RAM limitations), the vibrating alarm, Bluetooth (Garnet's BT stack is so pitiful it wouldn't be much of a loss), the stylus and the touchscreen.
8. I am unaware of there ever being non-touchscreen Palm OS device actually released and made available for sale. Even Dana's Alphasmart, targeted at a very niche vertical market (the education sector, which generally isn't one to be flooding callcenters with cries of help with a half-decade year-old abandoned app doesn't work) had a touchscreen with Graffiti support. So did the Fossil WristPDA watch. I highly doubt Palm would release anything with the Palm name & some variant of the Palm OS on it that broke any all hope of compatibility with a dozen years' worth of apps & UI.
To summarize, in its current form, Garnet doesn't support:
Internal RAM larger than 128mb, Bluetooth A2DP and/or BT 2.0 EDR. It doesn't support 802.11g nor does it support multiple wireless radios in a single device (telephony, BT, wi-fi). It doesn't support EVDO Rev.A nor does it support HSPA/UMTS for GSM networks. External expansion cards are only seen as 4GB volumes and it's a very unsecure (no WPA2 AES etc), non-multi-tasking/multi-threading OS. And it has zero (or nearly zero) intelligant power management/CPU throttling support. Finally, most of the inherent functional of Garnet user experience still relies too much on Palm Desktop, which in itself is a nearly-dead dinosaur that's been abandoned by Access with only the minimum of Windows Vista compliance. (and I have a sneaky feeling Windows 7 is going to be hitting the market sooner than we think).
And, while this is beyond the bredth of my technical know-how but I have a feeling that the future generations of mobile chipsets/CPUs might not even be compatible with Garnet (such as the Qualcomm MSM7201 chipset used in the Treo Pro). And let's not even get into screen resolutions higher than 320x480, WiMax etc etc. For all practical purposes, especially those of Palm's customers (ie the carriers) it's dead (GSM) or dying (CDMA).
IMHO, Palm would really be silly to throw any more $ into Garnet at this point, short of a tweaked Centro 2 with a few hardware improvements (2mp camera, larger 320x320 LCD, higher capacity battery, 3.5mm headphone jack, microUSB connector).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
the bottom line is palm better do *something* if they want to survive. it's getting NASTY out there!!!
RE: new slogan
> variant of the Palm OS on it that broke any all hope of compatibility
> with a dozen years' worth of apps & UI...
You are totally wedged into Fanboy-Think.
Stop it.
Start thinking "DUHmb".
Start thinking "Oh Kewl! I =luv= those rhinestones! And purple color!"
Start thinking "Kerplack!" as a major selling point.
God.
Now you're thinking...
RE: new slogan
Relax HKK and Co, the "breakthrough new designs" are on the horizon. This could surpass the Cobalt industry foundation shaker from years ago! I would love to eat my words, but I have a strong feeling that I'll go hungry.
Pat Horne
RE: new slogan
That was, of course, supposed to have another 'o'...you're good, bu ya ain;t God yet!
RE: new slogan
So I looked up the dimensions of each phone for comparison and was surprised at the similarity:
Nokia 6233: 108 x 46 x 18 mm
Palm Centro: 107 x 54 x 18.5 mm
The Centro really is small! So as far as smartphones go, I don't think people would think it was a brick if they expanded the screen to 480x320 and kept the keyboard. I still don't think I want one. I'm still wanting the keyboardless version.
"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: new slogan
First of all, I'm not a Palm fanboy. I am a long-time user of the Palm OS platform who feels that the original Pilot was a truly revolutionary device upon its release in 1996. The PIM apps & 3rd party software library of the Palm OS are still unmatched and the UI is clean, uncluttered, and simple for day-to-day tasks (though in desperate need of a facelift). But a fanboy for Palm Inc. and their products/actions of the past 7-8 years? Certainly not!
Smoke & mirrors marketing (day-glo colors, respinning the same model/formfactor year after year etc) is gonna get old quickly, especially now that RIM (once THE poster child of stodgy, clunky, boring industrial design) has awakened and started churning out stuff like the Pearl, Bold, Storm/Thunder etc.
That said, your points about features targeting the mass market are good and, IMO, this is where Palm could/should have done more to differentiate the Centro 1 from its Treo predecessors. A few easy "kerplacks!" that Palm could easily add to a Garnet-powered Centro 2 mass market-style device would be 3.5mm stereo headphone jack, a gig or two of onboard storage, an integrated Facebook app & an improved Google Maps (perhaps street level views that are integrated with the Palm OS address book).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
The "Kerplack!" comments were sincere - make a large screen flip phone with a basic set of good features like a QWERTY keyboard and be done with it. To hell with developers - just make a saleable feature+ phone.
Low-end el-cheapo almost-disposable consumer phone. No OS costs (save $15-ish right there on manufacturing costs).
=======
What Palm has traditionally done is failing - the Big Guys have crushed them to the point that Palm isn't even getting mentioned anymore in the Me-Too Media when phones/smartphones are being discussed in articles!
So, okay, tighten the belts and change. Start out-Nokiaing Nokia with the low-end.
[nah, I don't REALLY think that's a sustainable course, but what's happening right now for REAL isn't sustainable for Palm, either]
RE: new slogan
Stuff like at least a basic photo viewers and media players will hopefully be integrated into the core Nova OS package. Dataviz will presumably be onboard with DTG and stuff like Bejeweled can always be re-purchased. I just want a future non-WM device from Palm to EFFORTLESSLY import my 12+ years of Palm OS PIM data. They need to bundle or build in an easy to use migration tool that can import PIM data from all Palm OS devices, whether a 1996 Pilot 1000 or a 2008 Centro with no missing/jumbled fields or corruption.
Assuming Palm doesn't show something Nova-related soon....I may very likely at least consider jumping ship to a BB Thunder since my 755p's digitizer has started fading on me (what a surprise!) and Verizon cannot seem to find any units anywhere (refurb or otherwise) to offer as warranty replacements.
P.S. I still say Nova ain't comin'...and if it is, we won't see it before this time next year by which point it'll be far too late for Palm.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
Strictly low-functionality for low-end consumer almost-commodity phones.
Nova is that Tween-OS that's supposed to be for the prosumer; not discussing that one, don't think there's much hope for Palm there (*).
And, of course, Windows Mobile for The Enterprise is currently a joke w.r.t. Palm - essentially no Enterprise presence.
Nope, just discussing PalmOS 6 as being an "enhanced" Garnet and strictly being installed on the lowest-end Palm phones.
=========
(*) It remains totally possible that Nova will be a multi-device OS allowing total inter-device comms; that might be a good selling point for a prosumer...
Yeah, we're talking Palm so maybe not, but ya never know!
Just wish we'd get a little more (like ANY) detail about it released/leaked, huh?
RE: new slogan
Again, going back to 2003 here.....Cobalt was SUPPOSED to be the enhanced Garnet, remember?
I just think that the MAJOR stumbling block Palm's gonna run into here is going to be Garnet's lack of multi-tasking/multi-threading and its shoddy telephony stack. EVDO Rev. A and GSM UMTS/HSPA all require simultaneous processes. And you don't exactly tweak an aging OS in a fortnight to be a smooth multi-tasker so it can do stuff like simultaneous voice/data some of the cheapest dumbphones can do nowadays.
So I think that Palm is basically stuck to go a US-only, CDMA EVDO Rev. 0-exclusive strategy from here on (as I think the GSM carriers are going to want to move past EDGE on even the cheapest handsets pretty soon). But let's use the example of saying the kids want to enjoy high-quality audio playback on their new gadgets: What's a cheaper way for Palm to extend Garnet's life expectancy for another year--cobble together OS improvements (native A2DP and/or licensing & tweaking Audio Gateway) or just try to spec the best hardware (3.5mm headphone jack) that Garnet can support & allowed by the margins on a <$99 handset?
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
== "We tried harder."
Take the following with a pound of salt, of course, but it IS Yet Another Datapoint:
- http://tinyurl.com/employeecomplaint
RE: new slogan
On a related note, where's the Wanda? I was supposed to have come out last month!
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9536/palm-wanda-treo-500-successor-leaked/
Are they jettisoning future product as well as employees now? Maybe the company is planning to EOL *EVERYTHING* other than variants of the Treo Pro and the Centro?
Meanwhile, the 1-2-3 punch of the new touchscreen BB Storm, Xperia X1 and of course the iPhone 3G shows that Palm is lagging EVERYONE in releasing a modern, large-screened device.
P.S.
Fearless prediction o' the day: Palm will release a Verizonized 800w, a CDMA Treo Pro for Sprint and a few "limited eidtion" Centro colors between now and Q1 '09 as their swan song as a standalone corporate entity.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
First of all, I'd absolutely put out a 480x320 phone. Whether they call it a Treo, Centro, Nova, or Steve is less important than the fact that big, rectangular screens display more information and are simply nicer than small, square ones and that Palm can charge more for a phone with a big screen. Keep a mildly refreshed Centro as the entry level device and push upgraders to the bigger-screened, more expensive deluxe version. I'd use a slider to keep it small. Whatever anyone says about the Tungsten T3's reliability, the fact is that it's one of the most fondly remembered Palm devices mostly because of its compact size and rich feature set.
Second, I'd bring out the Nova OS early even if the UI isn't ready. I'm assuming that Nova is still in the pipeline and that the kernel at least is ready. (If it's not, then HKK's gloomy claim that Nova will never come out is likely true and there's not much point in being here anyway.) I'd pair that kernel with a Garnet emulator. (Backward compatibility is essential for me. Without it, I might as well just move to the iPhone, Android, or even Windows Mobile.) If Access can bring out a Garnet emulator, so should Palm.
Put the emulator, a skinning application, and a modern web browser on a fully buzzword compliant phone with up to date wifi, bluetooth, with 4GB of memory and an SDIO slot that accommodates the largest capacity cards possible, a nice keyboard, and a slider that opens up to reveal a big screen. Then you'd have a modern, good-looking device that is backward compatible with previous Palm devices that will carry Palm into the future and take the pressure off of the Nova project. Hell, if Palm could replace the underlying kernel and allow Garnet to transcend its limitations, they might discover that they don't need a new OS. HKK's prediction would come true but it would be a good thing for Palm since it would allow them to start over again but this time with a solid foundation to build upon.
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
RE: new slogan
>I'd bring out the Nova OS early even if the UI isn't ready.
an unfinished, buggy UI ain't going to be good for anybody.
>Backward compatibility is essential for me.
you're in the minority of palmos users.
>I'd use a slider to keep it small.
slider = PIA and moving parts = failure
>with 4GB of memory
hell will freeze over before you see this. how long did it take them to scale up to 128MB???
RE: new slogan
>I'd bring out the Nova OS early even if the UI isn't ready.
an unfinished, buggy UI ain't going to be good for anybody.
Which is why in the rest of my post, I said that I'd use the Garnet UI on top of the Nova kernel. That would be a win, win for me - a proven, intuitive OS running atop
a modern, stable kernel.
>Backward compatibility is essential for me.
you're in the minority of palmos users.
Am I? You've taken a poll? Can I see the numbers?
>I'd use a slider to keep it small.
slider = PIA and moving parts = failure
Tell that the to all the Tungsten T3 fans who put up with the occasional failing slider or missing screw because they liked the form factor. The slider is no different from a clamshell in this respect - it allows the manufacturer to reduce the bulk of their device at the expense of creating a point of failure but if the device is cheap enough or if Q&A is good enough, it can be worth it for both the manufacturer and the user.
>with 4GB of memory
hell will freeze over before you see this. how long did it take them to scale up to 128MB???
The LifeDrive had a 4GB hard drive three years ago. The Tungsten T5 had 256MB four years ago. Since then, memory prices and density have improved to the point where it would probably be difficult to find OEM chips with less than 128MB. The bottom line is that everybody on this site keeps screaming that Palm needs to do something to improve their devices. Adding more memory is probably cheaper and easier than anything else that Palm could do.
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
RE: new slogan
At any rate, Palm SHOULD have to do something to address in one form or another Garnet's 4GB ceiling, as 16GB microSDHC cards are now hitting the market and 32GB fullsize SDHC cards have been around for a bit already and are dropping in price.
So just for shiits'n giggles, let's speculate what a Centro 2 could potentially include:
-2GB internal storage volume (with a return of "Drive Mode")
-Higher-capacity battery (1350-1500mAh)
-2megapixel camera
-3.5mm headphone jack
-microUSB port
-Slightly larger 320x320 LCD (Treo Pro-sized?)
-New Eco-friendly Treo Pro style packaging
That's assuming the core OS & bundled software functionality remains basically unchanged, save for maybe some stuff like Palm's Facebook app & the latest version of Google Maps in ROM. PTunes & DTG are essentially unchanged from the first Centro.
For the first time basically since the T3 in 2003, Palm has a device whose performance is up to par and expectations. With the Centro, Palm FINALLY got most of the various quirks worked out of NVFS. So with a fundamentally snappy device in the Centro, it would seem that they could maybe spend a bit more on the hardware side of things this time around since all of the easy OS stuff (lag, etc) has already been fixed and the big stuff (multitasking, GSM 3G etc) isn't gonna be fixed.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
palm has neither the ability nor desire to fight and win a feature/spec war. they will continue to live off of the goodwill of their loyal customers.
RE: new slogan
> loyal customers.
Haven't been reading (ex)FanboyCentral recently, huh?
RE: new slogan
the goodwill of their remaining customer.
There I corrected it for him.
The last known classic PDA user.
I've recently upgraded from a PLAM TX to a Newton MP2000!
http://newtonpda.googlepages.com
RE: new slogan
they will continue to live off of the goodwill of their loyal customers.
You mean that last remaining guy in the corner who still carries a Palm IIIc synced (how quaint the term) with his Windows 98 PC?
--------
Tech writer, weblogs inc. http://www.tuaw.com
RE: new slogan
Will Nova come out Q2 '09, be delayed until 2010 or never come out at all? Furthermore, do you think Nova is/was ever a real project or just smoke & mirros designed to fool Palm's shareholders into thinking they are busy doing SOMETHING other than trying to cook up new Centro colors and sell the company?
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: new slogan
yes! aka MikeCon!
RE: new slogan
interesting rumor that MSFT may buy RIMM at $50/share............
that'll make things interesting.....................
nasty week in the markets............president obama scares me......
time to get some cocktails and some p***y...........
good night all.............
RE: new slogan
I never had a IIIc (ew!). And I'm using XP.
So, Lexusboi, have they repossessed yours yet?
RE: new slogan
no, i own it. but i, like many others, have gotten pretty beat up the last few weeks. but, unlike you, i believe in America.
RE: new slogan
For shame!! Don't you know regulation solves everything!?
(Obvious sarcasm)
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
RE: new slogan - Yup new colors do it!
Damn, now THAT'S innovative!
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new slogan
"We're 4th. We Try Harder."