Comments on: Palm Responds to Apple's Veiled Threats

apple has enough cash and legal talent to keep palm busy until they run out of elevation cash and close their doors.

apple has enough cash and legal talent to keep Palm busy

Apple has enough cash to buy Palm outright!!
Goodbye litigation!

It's just a matter of:
a) whether Apple calculates buying Palm as being cheaper than litigation or any perceived losses incurred from Palm infringing its IP.

and

b) whether such a purchase will be regarded as an anti-competitive move by the authorities.

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

It's a lot cheaper to sue.

Apple is at a critical venture right now, especially with Steve in the public shadows currently and beyond. Will Apple continue to be the forward-looking company that it has been in recent years, or will Apple turn into defensive, hold-the-fort brand. Apple's been down this road before with other battles. Apple is far better-off continuing to build a forward brand through intentional marketing rather than the stagnant profile that litigation fights can bring.

No, I listed those patents to show that if Apple believes Palm is infringing upon their patents, they have plenty to sue for.

>Apple better concentrate on how to better their UI system on the iPhone. Things like
>navigating from app to app without having go "Home" first...copy, cut and paste, etc.

Palm should try innovating without ripping off other companies IP.

OK, you actually made me LOL with that!

I think that they're obsessed with fashion over function. All it would take to implement copy-n-paste on the iPhone would be some kind of OS-wide multitouch "function" button. Hold with one finger, select text with the other. Tap the button to bring up a list of traditional edit commands.

But that's not pretty enough for Apple. So users get screwed while Apple dicks around coming up with something that doesn't mar what they obviously consider an untouchable masterpiece. It's symptomatic of Apple as a whole: fashion over function. Which is fine for them, 'cause that's what 90% of their users are concerned with anyway.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary

That obsession has proved popular with consumers. I believe Apple has been smart not to take edge cases and waste their development effort.

>All it would take to implement copy-n-paste on the iPhone would be some kind of >OS-wide multitouch "function" button. Hold with one finger, select text with the >other. Tap the button to bring up a list of traditional edit commands.

That sounds clunky - I didn't realize you were an UI designer.

>But that's not pretty enough for Apple.

Replace "pretty" with "poorly thought out" - and I'll agree.

>So users get screwed while Apple dicks around coming up with something that doesn't
>mar what they obviously consider an untouchable masterpiece. It's symptomatic of
>Apple as a whole: fashion over function. Which is fine for them, 'cause that's what >90% of their users are concerned with anyway.

It is what gives them their gargantuan profits - I guess you'd prefer they watered down their design and barely made enough cash to scrape by (Palm).

Man, I hope there's no damned record size limit in webOS. Hey, you SQLite experts - is there?

Who said that? Oh, you.

Next!

Go back up to my post that both quotes the relevant part AND gives a link to the original Me-Too Media article.

Sheesh.

No kidding.

Sheesh.

Now we find out the Pre can only do "text" copy-n-paste?

And so folks are castigating Apple because they didn't do "object" copy-n-paste (and, obviously, decided against "text" copy-n-paste - maybe because that's not what folks think when they think "copy-n-paste"?).

Didn't I read recently somewhere about how one couldn't do "image" copy-n-paste on the iPhone (like from camera to email or something) so it was totally broken? Yet now here is the Pre and it can't, too (or something)?

W.r.t. applications accessing others' data - good grief, the scenario was spelled out for you and you even QUOTED it!

An application is not allowed to access other application's data; "object" copy-n-paste EXPLICTLY loads "the clipboard" with one application's data, available for any other application to access! Security hole!

Anywho, if one goes back in THIS thread only one can outright see - at face value, please - what I've been saying w.r.t. copy-n-paste.

One application copies text to a clipboard, said clipboard available to another application, security hole.

Like it or not.

Now to bring us back to near the top of this posting thread, does anyone REALLY think that Apple cannot program copy-n-paste?

- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7125/#149415

Really?

"text" is "data".

"Unit set to explode at 13:40 GMT at coordinates Alpha Bravo"

"Mr. Jones' prescription for Viagra has been renewed"

"Your daughter got a C on that math test"

"Mary, my wife does NOT know about that hotel reservation"

Text is data.

Placed by one application, now available to another application, security hole.

http://www.macrumors.com/2009/01/26/apple-awarded-iphone-and-multi-touch-patent/

All of a sudden, we've returned to the halcyon days of 1981. But instead of 640k being good enough for everyone, 8gb has now been deemed more than sufficient for anyone's media collection, even by people with that much or more SD-based storage on older Palm OS devices far less suited for media than the Pre.

Palm have joine Apple in the strange new world of "dumb smartphones"---flashy enough to dazzle the average soccer mom or teeny bopper, great web browsers & media players but ultimately quite handicapped in many areas. These devices are sadly wanting in many "power user" aspects such as cut & paste, removable storage, removable batteries, IR, video recoridng, voice dialing over BT, desktop synching etc (take your pick). Of course, power users are in the minority, and vocal power users are even rarer.

We've been clever enough to work around the continued failings of Palm, Access/PalmSource & Garnet over the past 6.5 years, but now Palm expects us to roll over and let them decree what we shall load on our devices (app signing), which carrier we can use it with (Sprint or bust) as well as how we sync 'em (Cloud or bust) and how much we can store on them (fixed storage only)? No way!

If switching to the next Palm device is going to require SO much change (and remember, we STILL have no 100% guaranteed commitment by Palm other than some vague mumblings at CES about being able to import legacy Palm Desktop PIM data), then I might as well jump ship to something with more appealing hardware, different carrier partnerships other than just Sprint, and a hardware manufacturer with a higher likelihood of still being in business in a year's time. Or I can just stick it with Garnet for the forseeable future, given my stockpile of 2 TX's and my trusty 755p. Heck, maybe I'll pick up a cheap Centro "just in case" while I'm at it!

To be tethered to a 2yr carrier contract with a device that's posesses ZERO expandability (iPhone) or can only have its battery switched out (Pre) is very consumer-unfriendly BUT that's apparently the new way of doing things in the world domincated by economic doom & gloom where Apple influences everyone & everything. I can live with it but I still don't have to like it. In some ways, I'm very curmudgeonly, and I have become so brutally efficient with the combination of stylus/d-pad/app buttons/touchscreen on ol' FrankenGarnet that anything involving strokes/swipes/gestures is certain to be less accurate and more time-consuming, no matter how speedy the Pre's processor is.

The Palm device history in my signature has in all likelihood come to a screeching halt, sad to say, until a thorough hands-on fondling with the Pre results in some kind of epiphany induced by a flurry of index finger swipes.

ALP, Cobalt, or DGOS--my $'s here for the taking!!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

http://www.nextel.com/en/services/power_vision/sprint_tv.shtml

and PocketTunes also has free streaming radio of virtually any genre you want. FRESH FREE AND CURRENT.

Sprint does not bend you over every month with no lube like AT&T and Verizon nickel and diming you to death. and i stopped paying for and "collecting" CDs, DVDs, MP3s etc. in this brave new world, FREE is where it's at, baby!!!

i have gone through my monthly bills and eliminated even the smallest recurring item that does not provide value.

"In the old world, real estate soared in value, credit cards were tools that let you painlessly live out your dreams, jobs were secure as long as you did as long as you did your work, retirement was an idyllic reward for years of toil, and money was made to be saved and passed on to the next generation. In the new world, real estate values are stagnant, credit buying can lead to financial ruin, we are all free agents in a job market where security can come only from within, retirement at any age may be foolish, and trying to build up and maintain an estate can be downright dangerous." - Stephen M. Pollan

I am just extraordinarily bummed over the lack of microSDHC. I've been waiting for the holy triumverate (non-WinMob Palm device + 3.5mm headphone jack + big screen) for so many years that having the rug pulled out from under me and my pocketful of SD cards really makes me sour. And while I will be a good boy and refrain from doom & gloom predictions for the time being, I am NOT expecting good battery life at all on the Pre and its feeble little 1150mAh battery.

Remember, someone like Gekko or me me biotching & moaning about Palm's decisions is coming from a USER'S perspective-not a stock-pumping market watcher or someone whose fortunes are in any way tied into anything involving the mobile industry (not throwing stones, just making a point). So I'll continue to call 'em as I see 'em, and while I know Palm HAD to do something drastic to survive (and that survival is in no way guaranteed by 2 days of demos at CES, let's not forget), they have basically set themselves up for this rash of criticism by many "power" users by their utter neglect of their Palm OS devices for so long.

Case in point: The Garnet Treos went basically unchanged from the 600 to the 650 to the 700p to the 680 to the 755p to the Centro. Had Palm prepped us for a cloud-based future by trying a bit harder with the old MyPalm portal & wireless backup solution, we might be more in the mood to cut the Hotsync cord completely. Or, had Palm offered some proper differentiation within their lineup by, say, a 755p with a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack and equipped the Centro with just 1-2GB of onboard storage and no microSD slot, the transition to the Pre wouldn't be as jarring.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

ARPU!! ARPU!! They've gotta make up for that $199 pricetag somewhere, y'know!?!
As I predicted earlier, make way for the "special" Pre-exclusive "Really Everything Unlimited" Sprint plan for $149.99/month...including a free 8GB online Sprint Storage Locker!

"Sprint will be the model other carriers will learn from"
Yes, in how to run a wireless business/brand into the ground. Maybe we'll get a $49.99 Centro 2 as a Wal-Mart exclusive running on the Boost pre-paid iDen network later this year as well.

"I'm bloody excited about the Pre!!"
I'm just bloody disappointed but will refrain from ranting TOO heavily here until I've fondled all of the shiny off a production Pre and put it through its paces. But of all the folks around these parts, Mike, I NEVER woulda expected such an about-face from you! ;-)

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

While you have truly taken your hardware mods to the extreme (in a good way!), I definitely see your point. Beersie makes some good points but at this stage of the game, I almost thing Palm would've been almost better off spinning the Pre off into a new company and/or distanced it from "Palm" as we know it. The Pre simply shares nothing with any of its older siblings...but with Palm giving all the signs that it's a WebOS future ahead of us, you really have to wonder if it's too much change all at one time and about 3 years too late...

In fact, what DOES the Pre share with previous Palm devices? Let's see...

-A "smile" keyboard like the old Treos, but made of the "gel" sheet used by the Centro & Treo Pro

-Autmatic "saving" of your current document when you switch apps

-The ring/vibrate switch up top

-The same 1150mAh battery used by the Centro and 800w & the same angular packaging used by the Pro

-The same microUSB sync/charge cords used by the 800w & Pro

-The obvious "Palm" branding on it + Sprint carrier relationships

That's not much to go on. There's a huge difference between "cool" and being efficient via multi-tasking and being "uncool" but brutually efficient.

Look, I probbly have at least 15-20 "touches" of my Treo in the course of any given day. It's USUALLY to quickly check some crucial bit of PIM data, check/write e-mail or check the web.

Let's say I get a new incoming e-mail alert.

I tap the red button, tap the center button to unlock, tap & hold center button again, press "up" on d-pad once, hit center button again to open up VersaMail, center button again to read my message, red button again for screen off.

All quick, painless, and easily done one-handed. A lot of the Pre usage I saw invlved two hands (one to hold the device, the other hand to provide the "stroke" finger). Not good, especially if you have short, fat thumbs like me that might pose a problem for trying to do some of the gestures with. Especially bad news if you are used to the rapid-fire quickness of years of ingrained FrankenGarnet one-handed navigation.

It's like Graffiti. I did just FINE with G1 for years and years. But most "average" users didn't want to bother with the learning curve, so Palm went with that and the hollow threat of the Xerox litigation as an excuse to dump Graffiti classic. Instead of just paying Xerox some royalties and/or offering us the CHOICE of a "free" G2 or a $20 G1 plugin, Palm just quietly kills a legacy of 7 years of devices running G1 and brings about the crummy G2 without a reasonable explanation or migration strategy. They even sneakily tweaked some late-production Zire classics and m515s to have OS 4.1.2 with Graffiti 2 pre-installed!

2003: You like Graffiti 1? TOO BAD!

2004: You like wi-fi? TOO BAD!

2005: You like PDAs? TOO BAD!

2006: You like 320x480 screens? TOO BAD!

2007: You like larger screens, keyboards, batteries and styli? TOO BAD!

2008: You like Palm OS more than Windows Mobile? TOO BAD!

2009: You like hard buttons, styli, IR ports, memory card slots, desktop synchronization, easy one-handed navigation, video recording, tweaking your device, and utilizing possibly 13 years of investment in Palm OS apps? TOO BAD!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Certainly free of any ability to listen to either stuff out of the mainstream-I have an extensive collection of Japanese reggae, and good luck finding KEN-U, Ryo the Skywalker or Shonan No Kaze on Rhapsody-as well as being free of the ability to allow you to listen to "your" music in contexts like long airplane rides.

What? "The cloud" isn't the solution to every problem....?

As for "playing DJ", you make it sound as though it's a chore. And if it becomes one, there's always shuffle mode, not to mention Genius, if you have a lot of time on your hands, anyway...

...hate having to haul that thing...

Heh. You kids have it so easy! Why, when I was your age, all we had were Sony Walkmans (Walkmen...?) that ran on four AA batteries and cassette tapes to listen to! You needed a backpack to carry around an afternoon's worth of music, not to mention the spare batteries! Why, we thought 20 megabytes was a lot of storage!

I had to walk eight miles through the snow to get to school. Uphill. Both ways.

(Waiting for a response along the lines of "You had a Walkman! Luxury! Why, if we wanted music, we had to bring our own harpsichord!")

I would, but I'm afraid you'd just yell at me to "Get off my lawn!", old-timer. :P

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_teen_up_to_something

Used to be, until a few weeks ago when iTunes went DRM-free.

'tis why I never used iTunes and always advised people against it. Build up a big enough library, spend enough money and you'd have locked yourself into Apple's ecosystem for all eternity.

Used to be, until a few weeks ago when iTunes went DRM-free.

Really? Only a few weeks ago? Didn't they start selling DRM-free music right at the time Vista was released? Huh, my mind must be going in my old age.


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/01/apple-labels-both-win-with-drm-free-itunes-tiered-pricing.ars

This notion that the Pre is going to make people switch from iPhone is nonsense. The only time that would happen is if people aren't satisfied with the iPhone or break their iPhone and figure why not try something new.

The Pre is aimed at existing Sprint owners who want to upgrade to something better, other carrier customers who want something better, and people like me who have been waiting to make a damned decision.

Given Sprint's Churn numbers, I'd imagine MOST of those customers desiring the above have already jumped ship to AT&T or Verizon.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Eh. You can never tell. If other carriers make a change that enables people to escape an ETF, anything can happen. Don't forget that contracts run out all the time. If there was no contract and no ETF, I think all carriers would experience a lot more churn, don't you?

Anecdotally, people I know switch phones, brands and carriers all the time. Every new contract they take up leads to a new phone. It'll be interesting to see what happens with iPhone once the first contracts start expiring and there's real competition in the form of Pre and others, especially given that iPhone ain't the hip new thing anymore.

Then again, maybe people will have built up custom app libraries they don't want to leave behind.

Media formats supported

Audio Formats: MP3, AAC, AAC+, AMR, QCELP, WAV
Video Formats: MPEG-4, H.263, H.264
Image Formats: GIF, Animated GIF, JPEG, PNG, BMP

And since Gekko is the Sprint Expert, I ask what these footnotes mean in terms of that $99/month fee he's been toyting:

# 2 Requires data services at additional cost. Microsoft Direct Push Technology requires Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 with SP2 or Exchange Server 2007. Additional fees may apply.

# 3 GPS requires data services at additional cost. Coverage not available in all areas at all times.

Alot of that patent has to do with *how* multitouch is implemented on the iphone.

Nothing to do with using a capacitive touch screen, but how the software algorithms can distinguish multiple fingers being placed on the screen and how various actions get interpreted as commands.

Palm can probably release the Pre - just remove the multitouch functionality from the software.

Still, Palm must have thought Apple wouldn't touch them.

Still, we doubt this will all settle quietly in the night. More likely it's going to come down to whoever decides to blink first - and unless Palm decides to go out in a blaze of glory, files a declaratory judgment action and tries to preemptively invalidate Apple's patents, we'd say the first shot's going to come from Cupertino.

After that, it's anyone's guess as to what might happen - this isn't anywhere close to a full-blown patent analysis, and we're sure the attorneys and law students out there will be able to find angles and tactics we've missed.

ambient light sensor <> multitouch implementation on mobile devices.

My Sylvania TV from the 80's had an ambient light sensor in it. Maybe Palm should sue them!

>In the eyes of a court, it's one and the same. If you are infringing someone's
>patent you are infringing someone's patent, whether it's for a touchscreen, an
>ambient light sensor or a toilet seat.

Must I spell everything out? My point is that the courts could throw out any patent they feel is bogus - and - if you read up on such things - the ambient light sensor patent is alot weaker than the multitouch patent.

>Apple take this to court, they might win. Or it could backfire spectacularly.

Is this an English sentence? Don't you mean "Apple MAY take this to court..."

Palm is at a greater risk here because Palm is a company with alot less cash.

>All you really need to know is that by suing Palm, Apple's putting its iPhone
>patents at risk, and that's an awful big ante.

And if Apple doesn't vigorously defend their patents that also puts them at risk.
They're in a position where they must aggressively defend their patents.

>No, unless Apple are as supremely stupid as you seem to think they are, this will
>either go quietly away or some cross-licensing arrangement will be reached.

Apple is pretty bright - if they have a case they will go on the offensive.
Cross-licensing deals will only come about if they feel there is exposure that they have violated Palm's patents.