Comments on: Palm Says Sept 12th Announcement Is Not Centro

Nice find...and very interesting. Summary - A Palm employee on the official Palm blog states that the device that they will present in Europe on the 12th will NOT be the Centro.

I have seen other rumors that claim that Palm is much further along with their Linux-based phone than originally estimated...helped by external contractors (Wind River?). My money is on a WM6 GSM device in Europe next week, but it would be very nice to see the first Linux-based Palm on the street instead.

Yeah, I can believe anything - I admittedly have not paid too much atttention to the Centro et al so know almost nothing about them - see the first comment!

"The Centro's LCD does appear (and has been reported to be by at least one user) physically smaller than any current Treo's screen."

Well, it's about time. We had to wait until release of the Treo 680 & 755 for the shorter battery life we were all clamoring for. Now it looks like Palm is set to *finally* shrink that HUGE screen we've had to tolerate on all Treo models.

Of all the things to "fix" on newer models, I'm continually shocked at where Palm's attention goes. Their long distracted walk through the mulberry patch pushing and now withdrawing the Fooleo is another example of diluting their strengths.

Meanwhile, Apple's already announced a PDA with a LARGER screen than the Treo... instead of "Touch" they ought to call it "Newton's Revenge." If they can add a keyboard and/or Graffiti ONE, removable battery and SD card and a PalmOS emulator to their line then the game is likely up for Palm - they can go into the business dumping the demo Fooleos.

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**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

"...instead of "Touch" they ought to call it "Newton's Revenge." If they can add a keyboard and/or Graffiti ONE, removable battery and SD card and a PalmOS emulator to their line then the game is likely up for Palm - they can go into the business dumping the demo Fooleos."

joad, you've got to be kidding! Your list of "ifs" reminds me of Don Meredith's commentary to Howard Cosell about his "ifs"..."if ifs & buts were candy & nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!"

Your list is hilarious (removeable battery & SD?...Apple has never & will never) and ridiculous (POS emulator?...the very need to have a POS emulator reveals the SEVERELY missing software on "Touch" to make it a true PDA competitor). "Touch" is an iPod with a WiFi radio to buy music & videos with. For crying out loud, you can't even find a foundational PDA feature in the market material on it. Apple built it to be what it is...a very sweet iPod!

...it won't be anything like an iPhone.

Thank God. We might actually get a phone with a hang-up button! Or even that incredibly advanced feature known as copy-and-paste. Still, it's nice to see Apple's trying. :P

MC, I read your blog on "iPhone Death Star Upgrade." I would like to add one more upgrade coming to your list...A virtual harddrive to store it all. :)

(BTW. I enjoy reading your posts.)

TooMuch --> Good. Didn't want you there anyway.

>>Thank God. We might actually get a phone with a hang-up button! Or even that incredibly advanced feature known as copy-and-paste. Still, it's nice to see Apple's trying. :P

Shut up. Everytime the iPhone is mentioned, you quickly inject your opinion as if you know what you're talking about. Just shut up already. Honestly. Notice the Palm Economy is considerably smaller than it was just two years ago?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

I guess you've never heard of Psion? In this industry, if you are unwilling to change along with the times, you'll find yourself a mere footnote on Wikipedia.

You're actually adding to the downfall of Palm by singing the praises of the Treo in comparison to the iPhone, which you still don't have any credibility to even talk about since you've never actually seen one in person. Notice you're pretty much the only one on this site that rips on the iPhone while everyone else says, "Why couldn't Palm give us that?"

No, you're right. Nevermind. Support Palm. But wait, what do I do with all of these SD cards now? Or those mini-SD cards I bought? Now I have to move to micro-SD? Can I still use my Universal Connector-equipped keyboard or do I have to buy a new one? Oh, and is the update ready for the 700p or is it still destroying Treos?

You're a Palm fanboy, nothing more.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

You're actually adding to the downfall of Palm by singing the praises of the Treo in comparison to the iPhone, which you still don't have any credibility to even talk about since you've never actually seen one in person.

You really are a bitter little man, aren't you Bosco? As I've stated about, oh, six trillion times, I can see the Treo's failings perfectly well. Bulky form, outdated OS, crap camera yada yada. But the iPhone is far from perfect. The only people who can't see that are folks like yourself, who are so choked-up with rage towards a freakin' gadget company (which, BTW, demonstrates a really sad set of life priorities) they can't bring themselves to acknowledge that Palm could do anything right. At all.

And this "credibility" thing - so, I'm wrong then about the iPhone having a closed OS, no hang-up button, no copy-and-paste, no MMS, no removable battery, no exposed keyboard and available only with contract to a crap carrier?

P.S. If the iPhone's so fantastic, why have Apple seen the need to drop the price by 200 bucks only two months out from release? Methinks sales have not been what Apple expected. Guess hype can only take you so far before you need to actually start, y'know, competing...

And Caney, nice try. How 'bout you try getting a life already, insteading of blogging pointless nonsense while you hang out in Apple stores? It's just sad.

It is curious how freakout's detractors seem to miss the point over and over again: he is a Palm fan who has looked at the limitations of the Treo and the iPhone and figured he's personally better off with a Treo. I've used an iPhone and I had the same response as Tim, for many of the same reasons plus a few others: I just didn't find it to be very good for doing business, which is why I bother carrying a smartphone in the first place. It won't connect to my company email or calendar. It won't let me edit or even view office docs. It won't let me log into and control my remote desktops and servers. It won't let me read eBooks or RSS feeds offline, like when I'm on a flight. I couldn't get the web-based iChat to work decently for IM, which we use heavily on my team. And it's nice to be able to download and play a game every once in a while, but I can't do that either. All things considered, there are really very few things I personally need or want to be able to do with a smartphone that I can do with an iPhone, whereas the Treo for all its other limitations, covers the territory fairly well. For me it's just a pretty feature phone and iPod--nice, but of very little use to me.

Like Tim, I really don't give a damn if Apple sells 500 iPhones for every Treo that Palm sells. It's not going to make me buy an iPhone. Obviously, other people have different things they want from their mobile, but I'd be embarrassed as hell if I called them "clowns," "retards" or "shills" for Apple because of this. I mean, who can't understand the simple fact that the iPhone and Treo are designed for different users to meet different needs?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Cheers Beersie, for restoring my faith in humanity. Hopefully, your rationalism will be infectious. Sadly, I suspect it won't.

Apple today said they had now sold their millionth iPhone.

A Lehman "analyst" today said he/she thought PALM's AT&T sales would be the pits.

Connection?

I never said iPhone takes all. The Retard doesn't understand what a breakthrough the iPhone is on several levels. You do, which is why you haven't seen me arguing with you.

BTW, will you post the damned concluding part of your Foleo thoughts on your blog already? (If you just did, post the URL.)

Well, keeping in mind the fact that probably 80% of the "business types" I know that use a Treo have NO 3rd party software on their Treos other than what Palm bundles in ROM or on the CD in the box, I can perfectly see "those types" jumping ship to the iPhone because they need little more than a cellphone with a built-in address book, calendar, and digital camera.

Now, there are folks like myself that could conceivably carry an iPod Touch IN ADDITION to a Treo. The Treo is still the superior PDA smartphone vs. the iPhone for classic PIM/e-mail/etc. purposes (ie anything not involving multimedia) but Apple's likely to be on their 3rd generation iPhone design by the time Palm even gets a buggy first-gen PLinux product out the door. Palm's stingy obsession with small square screens is really going to be their downfall. I had a lady ask me the other day when I pulled out my Treo "Oh is that a Treo or a BlackBerry? They're both like little iPhones but with tiny screens and little keyboards that no one knows how to use". Crude, yes, but that pretty much sums up the opinion of the masses as far as these things go.

Now, I refuse to carry 3 devices. 2 devices is the maximum I'll carry with me during a workday. Since I rely on voice for most critical tasks, I'll probably stick with a dedicated dumbphone no matter what. Now, what to pair with it? A Treo, a TX or an iPod Touch? All have a variety of pros & cons.

A small/sleek flip dumbphone (I currently have a Moto KRZR K1m) is still the best "primary" device IMO because they are so durable and easy to pocket if you are traveling light. Other pros are superb battery life, reception, durability, voice quality, Bluetooth, and speakerphone/hands-free functionality. Dumbphone are rock-solid stable but have lame web/e-mail/camera/multimedia/contacts functionality.

Let's examine the pros & cons of my other three available choices:

#1 Treo (I currently have a 700p)
Pros: Removable battery in a wide variety of capacities, EVDO "internet anywhere", strong PIM functionality, superb thumboard, "thousands" of available apps & accessories

Cons: Bulky, heavy, only mediocre battery, atrocious voice quality and reception, poor build quality & reliability, small square screen, poor multimedia capabilities, poor Bluetooth performance, pricey, requires a data + voice plan on Verizon even if I don't use it as a voice phone

#3 iPod Touch
Pros: 8 or 16GB of internal storage, fantastic screen, superb mp3 player functionality & audio output quality, good build quality, fantastic UI. Sleek & slim design. Good value for the $ considering the amount of storage included.

Cons: Mediocre PDA functionality, no cut'n paste, no stylus, no Graffiti/Jot etc, no removable SD slot, fixed battery, unproved track record, and no 3rd party apps.

#4 Palm TX
Pros: 320x480 LCD, 128mb RAM, wi-fi and Bluetooth, cheap. strong PIM apps, stylus, SD slot, "thousands" of avilable apps & accessories. Best compromise between media & productivity between the two above units.

Cons: Mediocre hardware quality and styling, fixed battery, dim LCD, no SDHC capability so 4GB card max size.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

I don't know what "business types" you encounter in your travels, Kris, but the number one apps I see business people using on their Treos are email and calendar, both interoperating with Exchange Server. Since the iPhone doesn't work with Exchange in its most common configuration, and doesn't work with BlackBerry Enterprise Server in any configuration that rules it out as a viable device for most of the business people I know.

As much as folks here seem to be wringing their hands about how Palm will be affected by iPhone (and I don't necessarily disagree) I still have a feeling that the biggest threat to Palm is RIM. Working downtown, riding the commuter train, and flying between Denver and the Coasts, I still see 15 BlackBerries for every iPhone, and Treos outnumbering iPhones at least 5 to 1. This isn't offered as an anecdotal sample of all mobile users, but these people working in Denver's financial, telecom, energy and government offices are probably a reasonably good sample of Palm's bread and butter market.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

/ignore Retard

Beers: I see Sidekicks galore where I am. (Great device name too, that.)

Apple never said the iPhone was an Enterprise tool. I'm sure you know that.

hkk: I forgot where I posted it, but I saw a woman on a subway doing something with her Treo. When she was done, she pulled out an *iPod* to play music. So much for MP3 via Treo! Everyday people *will* carry 2 devices.

"There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all."

>It is curious how freakout's detractors seem to miss the point over and over again:
>he is a Palm fan who has looked at the limitations of the Treo and the iPhone and
>figured he's personally better off with a Treo.

Beers, that he is a palm fanATIC isn't in dispute - it's his making conclusions and basing opinions on a device he has never used. He's better off with a treo because that's all he can get.

>It won't let me edit or even view office docs.

With editing you are correct. When it comes to viewing office documents then you don't know what you're talking about - I can view pdf, word, and excel on my iphone.

>Like Tim, I really don't give a damn if Apple sells 500 iPhones for every Treo that
>Palm sells. It's not going to make me buy an iPhone.

You guys should - Palm has made a few lackluster attempts to enter the consumer market ("The Treo 650 in four exciting colors!") - and the LifeDrive. Palm needs a breakout consumer hit to broaden their market. The iphone is squeezing Palm at one end and RIM is squeezing them from the other. Also, apple isn't standing still - they just announced the ipod touch and firmware updates for the iphone will be forthcoming.

>Obviously, other people have different things they want from their mobile, but I'd
>be embarrassed as hell if I called them "clowns," "retards" or "shills" for Apple
>because of this. I mean, who can't understand the simple fact that the iPhone and
>Treo are designed for different users to meet different needs?

I agree that the iphone and the treo are designed for different markets - however I consider the person who ineptly compared them a clown and I stand by that assessment.

Now I'll take on the clown's comments:

>If a product is selling as well as you'd hoped at 600 dollars, you don't drop
>the price - and eliminate another variant altogether. What, you think Apple don't
>like money or something?

Apple is attempting to grow marketshare by the maneuver - a million iphones since June 29th - in a few weeks we can here how badly Palm is doing with the treo.

>As for my criticisms of the iPhone, I again challenge any of you sad little people >(and it's always you guys) to actually show me where I'm wrong. You still haven't.

Your opinion is your opinion - I've told you several times where you're mistaken about the iphone. Unfortunately you're too much of a palm apologist to take your blinders off and see where apple has innovated with the iphone.

Is it perfect, no. However it's got alot of things Palm should be looking to copy.

However you continually take trivial issues with the iphone and blow them out of proportion, while nontrivial issues with the treo are glossed over.

The form factor on the iphone is incredible - the treo looks ilke it was developed in 1985. The OS on the iphone blows the single tasking Palm out of the water...usability is another area where Apple is ahead of the curve.

Blazer on the treo - total trash compared to safari on the iphone.

>Put up or shut up, folks. (But what's the bet you'll do neither?)

Speak for yourself clown boy!

1. i know BlackBerry is not a panacea nor perfect. i'm just hoping it's not that bad. i like bulletproof push email and NO CRASHES. can't get that from treo.

2. we tend to "like what we know", so if you are used to X and switch to Y, you will biitch about Y because you were used to X. until that is you get used to Y.

3. palm is no apple. palm is incapable of being creative/innovative. they're all out of ideas and have no idea-people. contrast what palm has produced over the last 5 years with what apple has done. i'm no fan of apple/steve jobs, but i have to give the bastards credit. luck has nothing to do with it. they are master innovators and master marketers. palm is neither.

Gekko;

Have you ever considered a WinMob Treo? In the little bit I've used it, the 700wx (especially with the latest updates on it) on Verizon seems quite solid. Even the build quality on the 700wx seems beter than on the 700p! 240x240 blows terribly but at least it's fairly stable and seems to make a better voice phone than anything running POS.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Totally agree that I don't want all my data living in the cloud where I need connectivity to get at it. I want copies of it on my own physical media wherever I am, and I want those copies synchronized as I work on them using whatever network is available.

Personally, as far as the "mobile companion" idea goes I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but for the phone to physically dock into the companion device and appear as a removable drive. This way there is no time-consuming or error-prone sync process required over a wireless connection that may or may not be fast and reliable. There are design challenges with this, but if Foleo was mine to create, that's the concept I'd be working with. Maybe the Foleo would be like a leather-bound book and there would be a pouch near the hinge that would accept the Phone and have a connector hidden inside it. If I had something like this I would keep that little "book" with me all the time, just as I currently do my mobile phone and my paper notebook.

I don't know. It would help differentiate the Foleo from "ultra-portable laptops" and make the "companion" idea more immediately comprehensible. I want something like this bad, but I'd be the first to admit that it would still be a challenge to market.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but for the phone to physically dock into the companion device and appear as a removable drive.

I guess I am holding onto syncing for two reasons. First, I do want to be able to choose to leave either device "behind". I suppose this would not be very often, and even less likely if my handheld was a smartphone, but the possibility is still attractive to me. Secondly, I like it for data backup purposes.

Part of the problem with choosing a path is simply one of what can actually be done right now (and done well) given the current state of hardware/software and what would be the theoretical "best world". Innovation requires some ability to imagine the theoretical possibilities in spite of the current realities and work toward realizing the possibilities.

"Well, whatever it is...", I would think that the "connection" (whether via keeping everything in sync or just using the data off of the handheld) would ideally be wireless/non-physical. Otherwise, such a "companion" device would require all paired devices to have the same physical connection system. This would limit the device's usefulness to Palm products only that they choose to standardize (and we all know how consistent they've been with that).

Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

W.r.t. sync et al - if PALM does it right (no, I no longer expect them to) then the Linux line of devices with brand-new designed from the TOP down applications with mandated new interfaces (data and user) will all be "syncable" similarly across devices for all such devices and the current "This app syncs, that one doesn't, this app allows instant-on, that one doesn't" set of problems will go away. I wouldn't hold my breath for this, though, gotta admit.

==========

> ...I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but
> for the phone to physically dock into the companion device...

What a great idea!

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796

Giggle.

[note - though not in that particular multi-year thread, SOMEWHERE I expanded on that literally-no-more-than-minutes-of-thought falling-asleep set of thoughts with something along the line of "make the phone part of a "component system" where one can interchange devices at will, like an audio (stereo) system"...unfortunately, where that was posted is lost in antiquity...maybe some board on Yahoo]

In Europe a phone HAS to be 3G. (and by 3G I mean GSM/UMTS, CDMA is almost non-existent in Europe). That means it cannot be PalmOS. End of story.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650

Isn't that keyboard wrong for Europe? Or is it just a small part of Europe that uses the different keyboard?

Well, no.

Clicked on "Buy" and it went to a page without the 500.

Giving PALM the benefit of the doubt (...) perhaps it redirects nonUK folks elsewhere.

Uh huh.

The Gag That Couldn't Shoot Straight.

Okay, the Buy page is working now.

But you can't buy the Treo 500 yet - have to wait (at least) another month.