Comments on: Newsweek on Palm's New Reach

He is becoming a self-inflicted joke now.

What do you mean, now?

Wikipedia defines vaporware as:

Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product.

So going by that, Pre becomes vaporware if, say, it doesn't come out by the end of the year (as that would be having "well exceeded" the "first half '09" release schedule).

In other words: not vaporware.

Pre is as much vaporware as the iPhone.

I see nothing wrong with that POV.

as bizarre as it sounds, i don't think he uses one.

Apology accepted.

The Fooleo, of course, was the epitome of vaporware - big splashy intro, thousands of posts/articles/gushes web-wide, no launch at all.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7495/#144418

P.S. My compliments also to you for kinda-envisioning back in August at least a chunk of the fundamental Pre concept--easy to move data on/off the device (either to the cloud wirelessly or via drag'n drop via USB mass storage drive capability)

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Lol. His posts are certainly vapid...

as bizarre as it sounds, i don't think he uses one.

Apple also owns a chipmaker now and will no doubt custom-design a killer CPU that no other cellphone can match for power-vs-battery life.

* I need Rhapsody compatible ...
I doubt Palm, or anybody else, is going to write clients for all the music services. Real should do it for WebOS. Surely they have a way to manually get the DRM audio over to that "cavernous" 8GB.

* I need ... like CorePlayer ...
Plenty of Youtube vids showing smooth video playing on the Pre. TI OMAP 3430 eats graphics for breakfast and has 2D / 3D accels.

* I need ... documents ...
DataViz is on the scene and will almost certainly be in ROM at launch. I wish another would do the honors, but DataViz seems to be the last man standing.

That said, I am disappointed in the lack of SD, backward compats, and lack of assurance for desktop sync. Is it me or does the phone look like cheap slick plastic. What ever happened to the glory days of the absolutely georgeous Palm V? Metal would be nice, bit I know that radios don't give it a lotta love. That said, I would probably slap the cash on ATTs table tommorrow if the Pre were market ready.

Pat Horne

Hell no, don't plop that crap in ROM! Throw it on the accompanying CD (if any). I want nothing to do with that crap - including having to see it's damned icon taking up space in the Launcher.

That's why there is no SD card, no desktop sync, no backwards app compatibility - because it's irrelevant to palm - they are playing for bigger stakes.

Chapura's listing on the slide of software partners suggests Outlook sync is still going to be in there somewhere. Although that's cold comfort to folks such as myself who despise Outlook...

Sounds to us like there might be some desktop or laptop client software involved, but is it HotSync, Palm Desktop, or some other application to work with Synergy? Our guess is the latter, but we can't be sure yet.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10142272-1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Pre#Sync

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090111-of-clouds-palms-webos-and-cutting-the-cord.html

Flashback to minority report there... "Pre killer" like in Pre Crime. I really hate the name Pre.

The popularity of my post has caught me and Palm by surprise, and my boss has asked me to hide the post while management decides what they want me to do about it. I want to make it clear, as always, that I wasn't speaking for Palm about what we are or are not doing, just collecting input. I really appreciate everyone who responded.

The internal discussion has been completed, and we're going to relocate the conversation over to Palm's official developer blog as soon as my author account gets created and I can write it up. Turns out by posting what I did I ended up "volunteering" myself for additional developer outreach work…

The first para should be strikethrough (I hope PIC uses the HTML code WordPress uses for it!).

But to you, of course, even the Earth was vaporware before the First Day.

Yawn.

Pat Horne

http://www.google.com/patents?id=zAiiAAAAEBAJ&dq=multitouch

http://www.google.com/patents?id=cWiiAAAAEBAJ

UStream is where the Internet action is, baby!
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/this-is-the-future-of-book-tours/

- see the backlinks at the bottom of the post too!

Which everyone said WTF? to when it was announced.

And then the Android Team probably said, WTF? NFW!

Oddly, I never looked up McNamee to see if there was a picture of him. For some odd reason, I had a Marine-like image in my head. Some guy with a flattop haircut and stogie in his mouth who was Mister Pinstripebucks.

Now I see he's a freakin GEEK!! OMFGZ! He just amped up my trust in what Palm has!

And that bit about auto-downloading the Wikipedia entries of people you're going to meet?! WTF?! Palm's been holding out on us! It makes me wonder what other goodies they have up their sleeves (and it's clear now they actually *have* sleeves!).

And was I right or was I right? As soon as I heard Jobs wasn't doing MacWorld, I posted exactly what he said:

Ed Colligan does Manic Dance
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7199/#146962

And:

Apple's Marketing Blunder Of 2009
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/apples-marketing-blunder-of-2009/

The biggest problem Palm is going to have is the fact that they're starting from scratch. I don't think they have the resources to build an ecosystem from the ground-up.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

no - he said "i use all of these devices and they all have strengths - android does best web - iphone does best music - BB does best email."

@abosco: Eh. I think the fact we're missing is the next generation of coders. We keep looking to *existing* devs to bring their stuff to the Pre. I think there will *plenty* of people with the HTML/CSS/Javascript skills who will do replacements that might even be better. I just hope, dear god, we don't get a frikkin flood of PreFart apps at the start!

I don't think Colligan ever expected RIM to enter the consumer space. It must have scared him.

But not enough to prevent him from being Dumbass of the Year with his anti-Apple crack.

And to again put himself in the running for 2009 with his Pre pricing crack.

Christ, does that guy have a ego problem or something?!

http://www.fob.com

Care to make a friendly wager, Bosco? Ten of your Earth dollars says they do - and it'll be thriving by the end of the '09.

no worries.

I think there will *plenty* of people with the HTML/CSS/Javascript skills who will do replacements that might even be better. I just hope, dear god, we don't get a frikkin flood of PreFart apps at the start!

Developers can create widgets for this platform. Widgets that have access to PIM data. Honestly, I fail to see why there will suddenly be a flood of developers to this platform. It's not hard to code in C as evidenced by the 10,000 native applications for the iPhone. And besides, you're always clamoring for quality software. To do that, you need a full SDK, not a widget DIY.

Care to make a friendly wager, Bosco? Ten of your Earth dollars says they do - and it'll be thriving by the end of the '09.

What's the bet? That they'll have a successful launch, consumer support, and 10,000 applications in the first year? Because if so, a company already did that.

But I think you're missing the key point about the Pre: it's a new paradigm. Forget the "web app" controversy and look at it as the first true *web phone*.

This thing is still compared to the iPhone every time it's brought up. As much as Palm is trying to avoid it, it gets compared to the iPhone, which is the gold standard for smartphones. Until new offerings start getting compared to the Pre, it'll still be a second-rate product.

It's not good enough to match a competitor in features anymore. If that were true, the iPhone would be buried in a sea of lookalikes. But it stands out. Why?

(No, the answer isn't the Mac cult excuse. I am one of many whose iPhone is their first and only Apple product.)

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

I did.

My first program was a translator to convert Macro-11 Assembly language into Version 7 Unix Assembly language. It was used on a massive program that was heavily used by our lab under Dec's DOS and needed to be used under the freshly-installed Unix.

That was my first program in C.

Very easy language to learn.

ROFL. Ever sat down and tried to teach yourself C, Bosco? From the sounds of it, no. Certainly it's not impossible, but compared to web languages? It's skyscrapers vs. sandcastles mate.

I completely disagree. Regardless, yes, I've taken programming classes and have become familiar with programming languages and the associated logic. This widget development platform is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Who are all of these developers who are saying, "Boy, I have a really great idea for an application, but I don't know how to code in anything but CSS! What ever shall I do?" If you make a living programming, you know how to code in C. This isn't even up for discussion.

Tim, weren't you spending all of last year trying to convince people how much better the Treo was than the iPhone? And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

Back to my original point - this thing does not have enough going for it to make it a breakthrough success like the iPhone. It's still fundamentally an iClone with a few added features. That's simply not enough to take the wind out of the iPhone's sails (or sales). You still don't get it. Features don't win customers.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

Haaaaaaaa! Go to slashdot and start that up. I think you'll be beaten up one way or the other. There are many, many people toiling in Suit Boxes earning their coin with just the elements the Pre uses: HTML/CSS/JavaScript. You do them a disservice with that statement.

>>>>So you're telling me that someone is going to have this fantastic idea for an application and bring it to a platform that has no current consumer support, is supported by a third-rate carrier, and has no SDK? And that they're going to turn down development for a platform that already has a handful of developer-rags-to-riches stories, a full native SDK, and over ten million customers supported by a continually-updating and expanding company?

>>>>Seriously? You think there's a better chance that THE breakthrough application will come on a Pre and not an iPhone?

Must I be this explicit then? The answer is YES. YES. YES!

You are ignoring a few fundamental points here:

1) The iPhone is mediated by App Store Nazis*
2) There is an entry fee to dev for the iPhone and a framework learning curve
3) The iPhone disallows the multitasking the Pre has built-in
4) There are devs out there who *hate* the iPhone Nazi-like locked-down way

>>>Remember your most-used phrase 15 years ago? "Is there a Mac version of that?" Get used to saying that with the Pre. Meanwhile, I'll be busy playing Brother In Arms on my iPhone.

>>>Honestly, I haven't really picked up a video game in years. But I paid six bucks for this app, and holy shit, it's phenomenal!

Oh stop it. You act as if I'm throwing dirt on the iPhone. You know better than that. But me ask that about a *game*? You *should* know me better than *that*!

*App Store Nazis:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/apple-approves-of-shooting-nurses-in-the-face/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/apple-bans-another-book-from-app-store/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/apple-forfeits-ebooks-by-banning-a-comic-book/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/iphone-devs-plough-your-own-furrow/

Still bests it in a number of key areas, you know, from removable battery to non-crippled Bluetooth to Real Keyboard. With ideas that were good enough for Apple to rip off wholesale, like threaded messaging or a mute switch. (Be careful when you throw around words like iClone, mate.) "Better"? Maybe not. "More functional"? Yes.

And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

Who do I have to convice? Most people can see what's in front of their noses. The rest - like you - are simply fanboys in denial. :P

Meanwhile, I'll be busy playing Brother In Arms on my iPhone...

Yes, the iPhone has some great games on it. Who's disputing that? Holding it up as some shining example of superiority, however, is a fallacy because:

1) It erroneously assumes that there will never be a lower-level SDK for the Pre, and;
2) Games are not killer apps. If people really want gaming-on-the-go they're probably gonna buy a DS or PSP that's purpose-built for it (with stuff like Real Buttons). Games on your phone are icing on the cake.

You're the one who brought iPhone into this discussion, not moi. (Or maybe it was Mike. Anyway.) I reckon Pre and webOS will be a smashing success regardless of whether iPhone continues to do well. That's all I'm saying.

You on the other hand seem to think Apple have gotten a death grip on the fickle fashion-conscious phone market and no-one will ever challenge them ever. Wonder what's going to happen in a year or two when all those iPhone contracts start expiring? Are people going to stick with Apple when there's new options like the Pre? It'll be interesting to watch.

3) The iPhone disallows the multitasking the Pre has built-in...

Apple has promised to make background notification and multitasking available to developers, however a timeline has never been established. Product development has been hard at work on it. In my opinion, it's safe to assume it will be introduced in 3.0 software sometime this Summer, likely June.

2) Games are not killer apps. If people really want gaming-on-the-go they're probably gonna buy a DS or PSP that's purpose-built for it (with stuff like Real Buttons). Games on your phone are icing on the cake.

How do you explain the fact IGN has the iPhone listed as one of their platforms for game reviews? I don't see WM, Palm, or Symbian on that list, but I do see the DS and PSP. Gaming is a big factor for a smartphone, and not just icing on the cake. Most of the popular applications are, indeed, games.

I reckon Pre and webOS will be a smashing success regardless of whether iPhone continues to do well. That's all I'm saying.

And all I'm saying is that you're wrong. Palm did a good job replicating the iPhone OS. But adding a keyboard and a tabbed multitasking menu will not suddenly leapfrog it, especially since pricing has yet to be established, and it's coming out on a lame-duck carrier.

Mike, where's that Colligan price quote again?

In order to buy this, people must have no prior experience with Palm (otherwise they'd know to stay far away), currently not own an iPhone or Blackberry (because they are both solid platforms with good ecosystems), look forward to switching over to poor Sprint service, be prepared to fork over some serious cash, and accept limited developer support because the platform still has the wrapping on it. This smartphone will not have the gotta-have-it consumer appeal of the iPhone or the enterprise support of the Blackberry. Mark my words, this thing will find very limited success. And expect it to get worse as a wave of Android phones get released, and iPhone 3.0 gets ready for launch. Palm Pre is actually short for Palm Pre-Mortem.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

But then when I start hearing about this new webOS from Palm, I don't think that I can be convinced at all that the iPhone OS is the best thing going. All Palm has to do to hit a bases loaded home run is deliver an "open-enough" system for developers (via the necessary API's and SDK). If they go too far in attempting to emulate the "control-freak" culture of Apple, they are in a losing battle with Apple. (And just like the stupid attempt to become the next Microsoft by splitting the company, they would fail against Apple as well.)

So, yes, based on everything I've seen so far, the webOS/Pre combo is better than the iPhone. Having the better product doesn't necessarily equate to success, but it's a good start.


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)