Rumor: Palm to Release Hi-Res Model Before OS 5

Over the past few weeks, several people who have had advance looks at future Palm hardware have been willing to talk about what they have seen on the condition of anonymity. Until now, these people have indicated that while the m525, the next high-end model, will have a better screen than the m505's, it will still be the standard 160 by 160. However, a reader has reported on a conversation with European Palm executive who was asked, "Will there be a Palm product with higher resolution before Palm OS 5?" The executive answered "Yes".

According to sources, Palm had been planning to not ship a hi-res model until the release of Palm OS 5, which would be the middle of 2002 at the earliest. Many users have complained that with Sony already shipping several Palm OS based handhelds with hi-res screens, Palm can't hope to remain competitive at the high end of the market without one. If this Palm executive is correct, the company has changed its plans.

A Palm representative told a California-based Palm User Group meeting recently that the replacement for the m505 would have more sidelights and a sliding brightness adjustment.

Among the other leaked features of the m525 are 16 MB of RAM and built-in Bluetooth.

According to a source who has asked to remain anonymous, the m525 is to be released in March of next year at Cebit 2002 in Hannover Germany. The m525 won't immediately replace the m505. Instead, the m500 will be discontinued and the m505 and m525 will be available simultaneously, with the m505 costing less than the m525.

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A bit much

Moosecat @ 10/11/2001 1:53:02 PM #
Isn't it going to be hard to sell the m525 when the whole world knows Palm is about to phase out the processor and operating system it will use? If I didn't know about StrongARM and OS5, I'd consider upgrading from m505 to m525 based on those specs. But I ain't buying three expensive new PDAs in the space of just over a year.

RE: A bit much
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 6:25:59 PM #
Contrary to popular intuition OS5.0 and ARM won't make our old Palms obsolete in quite a while. You can't argue with a massive software base.

I mean, why aint everyone running 64bit Itaniums over 32bit Pentium3/4s? It's cos the software hasn't been developed for it yet and it's still very pricey.

Hence a Hi Res Palm device running say OS4.5 with QVGA color and the size of my m505 would get my definite vote. I'd buy it.

Even the software would work right on it, since everyone is starting to cover QVGA for support.

RE: A bit much
mikecane @ 10/12/2001 11:52:39 AM #
"popular intuition" ??? -- don't you mean popular opinion?

RE: A bit much
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 11:55:50 AM #
I agree that some people will buy m525. It could be that they can't wait for the next generation. Another reason is the they don't know about the future models. Look at m505. Although many people gave a poor review of the latter in this site, many people are buying it. The August survey has proven so.

RE: A bit much
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 3:43:04 PM #
No, I DID mean popular intuition. Just because everyone uses "contrary to popular belief/opinion" doesn't mean I'm not allow to string together words that look similar and have it still correctly express what I mean.

Would it help if I said "Against common intuition"... Does that make it easier for you to understand?

RE: A bit much
mikecane @ 10/13/2001 11:29:21 AM #
No, either way, it's idiotic and nonsensical.

RE: A bit much
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/13/2001 2:06:31 PM #
heh heh heh.

Palm needs to hurry up!

AzNCoMpUtAnErD @ 10/11/2001 1:56:55 PM #
If palm wants to catch up to Sony, it better hurry and develop something close to the standard of Sony. This new m525 sounds JUST LIKE a Sony Clie. The Clie has high-res and a great sidelight. Better hurry palm...before Sony takes over...

Sony Clies RULE!


RE: Palm needs to hurry up!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:16:35 PM #
Yea. I've owned just about every Palm from the Palm Pro forward, and I now use the m505. That was a big improvement over the Vx, but it's still lacking. My firm is considering the switch to PocketPC2002. I'm leaning that way myself. I'm sorry but moving to the high-res. screen is playing catchup at this point. Palm needs to go to the StrongARM ASAP, they need a virtual graffiti area, etc., etc., etc. Palm needs to innovate way beyond where the Clie is right now. JBH

RE: Palm needs to hurry up!
SilliconMan @ 10/11/2001 4:15:39 PM #
Sony already has the high res screen and built in MP3. They could already be working on ARM based units with virtual graffiti. For them its much less time than Palm..and Palm should know this...but it seems like they don't.

Palming away.....
RE: Palm needs to hurry up!
jeremyf @ 10/11/2001 4:41:49 PM #
Virtual Graffiti is ridiculous. :(

I definitely want virtual grafitti on my next handheld!
robrecht @ 10/11/2001 8:15:19 PM #

Thanks, Robrecht

Virtual Graffiti
Ronin @ 10/11/2001 11:45:38 PM #
I am interested to hear from HandEra users about the pros and cons of virtual graffiti. I see it as having definite drawbacks that may offset the obvious benefit of additional screen real estate.

I use my Palm often and use graffiti regularly and also use several hacks that involve pen strokes. Every Palm I have had has suffered from the screen becoming scratched in this area due to use. I imagine that a virtual graffiti area would suffer from the same scratches over time and the text displayed in this scratched up area unreadable.

Anyone with a HandEra or even a PPC care to share the benefit or their experience with a virtual input area.

RE: About yer scratched graffiti area
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 1:04:08 AM #
Uhm try a screen protector, or maybe a graffiti replacement like fitaly stamp, (fs is not going to help on a QVGA screen, but it will help on your current palm/hand/sony)

This way the graffiti "area" will not get scratched, also try writing softer.

The only thing I am worried about with the collaspable graffiti area is bugs that make the device crash.

The more complicated the software the more chance you'll make it crash. My palm Vx never crashed before I got the folding keyboard, the hacks, the over clocking, the fitaly stamp, the word processors, the special launchers, all of these things make the software more complicated, then you go and add a collasple graffiti area, and it affects all of those original complications in a whole new way, just the upgrade to my sony clie, with it's high-res assist software, already it conflicts with "certain" programs, and now the jog dial too, the jog dial doesn't make it crash, but it does cause me to occasionally exit or switch programs/documents by accident, which is a little annoying, which is why Microsoft Software will always have bugs, no matter what they do to correct it later, because the initial philosophy is corrupt, and somewhat unavoidable.

Virtual Graffiti
GrouchoMarx @ 10/12/2001 1:54:45 AM #
I didn't like the idea of virtual graffiti originally. I liked being able to write something at any time without hiding part of my application. I didn't see the extra screen space as being worth it, as I was happy with my square screen.

Then I actually got a 330 and started using it. :-) The extra screen space DOES make a difference when viewing DOCs or other long read-only sources, if you have an app that supports it. (Many now do.) You can also see larger lists in apps that show lists. I'm also a big fan of the echo/inking, as it eliminates the need for TealEcho. Most importantly is what it does NOT do, specifically, the PocketPC style "pop-over" writing area. It's natural state is without the writing area. The Palm's natural state is with the writing area. When the graffiti area is minimized, it slides out of the way. Apps that don't know about it are completely unaffected. Apps that do have more area to work with in a flat space, vis, they generally simply scale to fill the extra space. It's not confusing, at least not to me, the way the PocketPC virtual writing area was/is. Every time I use my TRGpro now, I have the urge to minimize the graffiti area and use the scroll wheel, and then miss them when I remember they're not there. :-)

As for the question of tearing up the screen with the stylus, I must confess that I've been using Palms for years and have never used a screen protector of any kind, and have never had a problem with my stylus doing any damage to the screen. I've heard from other people who say that they always tear their screens up without a screen protector. Your mileage may vary. If you are afraid of damaging the soft graffiti area, the screen protectors for the III-series should fit just fine, and many people use them.


Virtual Graffiti... what about screen size?
jeremyf @ 10/12/2001 2:37:33 AM #
Virtual Graffiti's main bonus is screen size, right?

Why doesn't anyone care about screen size without virtual graffiti? For example, in area the Visor Prism's screen size is undoubtedly bigger than the m505's if the m505 HAD virtual/collapsable graffiti.. the same might even be true with Handspring vs. Sony or even HandEra...

There are also many minuses.. for example, with graffiti on the HandEra and PPC's have basically a 240x240 "viewing" screen.. which is nice but not as beautiful as Sony's 320x320.. you'd need to raise the resolution to 480x320 to match it..

I think once screens and processing power advance then Virtual Graffiti would be a nice addition to all handhelds, but it's only "good" for a niche market right now, in my opinion (heavy ebook readers, etc).

In other words, "Virtual Graffiti is ridiculous." :(

Virtual graffiti is not ridiculous.
robrecht @ 10/12/2001 5:53:03 PM #
Virtual graffiti also allows a basically square screen to be put into a "landscape" configuration. This not only greatly improves a text reading experience (and not just ebooks by the way) but greatly enhances the ability to use spreadsheets and databases on a handheld.

I guess I'm part of a niche market, but it still seems as if virtual graffiti is a great idea. Of course, 480x320 would be preferable to 320x240 (a SONY 760 hi-res screen with soft graffiti would be very impressive).

Who says nonone cares about screen size without virtual graffiti? Is it really true that the Visor Prism's screen size would be undoubtedly bigger than the m505's if the m505 HAD virtual/collapsable graffiti?

It seems to me that a lot of the opposition to virtual graffiti comes from code-writers that do not want to deal with the hassles of improving upon applications. Users, too, are rightfully concerned about bugs that crash machines, but this too stems from code-writers that do not want to effectively deal with the hassles of improving upon applications.

Just my opinion.

Thanks, Robrecht

RE: Palm needs to hurry up!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/14/2001 7:03:41 PM #
Might as well take it to full vga, 480 X 640. That's where PPC is headed anyway. A screen the size of the PPC with full vga would be ~around the resolution of the clie. Not only would vga at that size be beautiful, but you could turn the screen sideways and do decent web-surfing without all that wap,whtml junk.

Palm might as well leapfrog PPC and do full VGA. If might take something like the ARM to handle the processing requirements, though.

Palm: Try harder!

I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:12:05 PM #
I agree with the previous comment. Right now, the pros and cons of a m505 vs. a Clie 610 (they have roughly the same street prices these days) are Clie: brighter sidelight, high resolution; Palm: thinness. Among those who are really shopping (vs. just buying the Palm brand name, which I admit is still a big draw for Palm), "thinness" just doesn't seem to be cutting it.

So what is Palm's strategy? To spend six months developing . . . a clone of the Sony Clie! (Yes, with bluetooth - that will certainly make it cost a ton more, but is it really going to sell a ton more units?) Sony will probably be introducing a new Clie about this time as well. Think they're going to sit still?

Try harder, Palm!

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:22:22 PM #
Palm also has better software bounusess.

Documents to Go alone is worth $70.00 and it is included with the m505. Also it includes multy mail ($40.00) and Jask image viewer ($30.00).

and please no flaming (this goes double for the Handera geeks)

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:22:45 PM #
While I agree that the Clie is better than the 505 in most every way, "thinness" IS a major factor for purchase for a number of people.

That's why I, like many others, avoid PocketPC's and even the Clie. I don't want to walk around with a brick in my pocket.

I also don't have any use for 200mhz, 64megs of ram, etc etc if my major uses includes addresses, phone numbers, spreadsheets, and the occational game.

If I wanted the features that are in most pocketPC's, I'd just shell out a couple hundred more for a full-fledged laptop.

I hope that Palm sticks to keeping the OS (and future models) SMALL, LIGHT, PORTABLE, and most importantly BLOAT FREE.

Microsoft's OSes try to be everything to everybody.. and that's why their software is such a pig.

I mean, I don't want to EVER see an hourglass on a handheld.

Give me the high-res screen, decent storage, good battery life, and a fast OS in a SMALL SLEEK form-factor like the 505 and I'm all for it.

Just say no to bloat!

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:29:50 PM #
you (last poster) are right. What good is a handheld if you can't easily carry it with you?

I love my palm and since using a Vx I can't go back to anything bigger regardless of features. I carry mine in a Vaja and the case adds some ticknes (about.4 inch) but still it is great.

another important selling point for Palm branded handhelds is the brand name. Who better to create palm handhelds than the company that makes the OS. Palm provides better tech support and the OS updated will be allwas first.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
N473 @ 10/11/2001 2:34:56 PM #
Make up your mind! You say you don't need 64MB RAM, then you say, "Give me... decent storage". Personally, I say throw all the ram you can my way! The more storage/RAM I can get the more I will fill.

New Palm Site Coming Soon!
RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:35:44 PM #
"Give me the high-res screen, decent storage, good battery life, and a fast OS in a SMALL SLEEK form-factor like the 505 and I'm all for it.

Just say no to bloat!"

I second that, I don't really need a 200mhz processor in a palm when i use it mainly for my todo, address and occassional game. 'Twould be nice to have high-res screen and 16megs with the same form factor. Do i really need to play mp3? nope! when am i going to use it? in the car-i have a kick ass system, at home? my home system rocks, in the gym-why would i want to take my palm to the gym? for the matter who does? where?
Those things are better as add-ons, and people who say they want to watch tv/movies on a screen that small, i say you have your priorities pretty messed up. But like they say, different strokes for different folks. I just think Palm should be listening to what their customers want and not force their hands (take it or leave it)everytime with their products.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
Moosecat @ 10/11/2001 2:37:01 PM #
My God, I'm not sure what kind of innovation you guys want. To me, m50x form factor, with a bright hi-res screen, Bluetooth, and 16MB ram would be a market-dominating PDA... Now, it is still possible that it will be too late (since who knows what other manufacturers will have at about the same time or earlier). But to say it is a clone of the clie is just silly.

Seriously, what would this PDA lack that you guys want? Wireless web? Maybe. But it's still plenty different from anything else on the market now.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 3:03:36 PM #

For some PPCs, yes, the size is bigger. But Clie can no way be called a brick. I am carrying Clie N710C everyday and I am quite comfortable with it.

I also tried the new Toshiba Genio two weeks ago, it is a very solid handheld and it doesn't need a sleeve like iPAQ. You can put a CF card without any battery pack. My friend uses it with GPS CF card and it is cool, the screen is sharp and big, the response is instantaneous. What amazed me is that the size isn't that big considering the processing power it has.

Tell me if M505 can do that nicely? (160*160 resoultion + dull color+slow CPU). M505 is a good machine but just overpriced, besides easy to carry isn't the biggest advantage for all the people, there are also many people who are not that mobile (like me)!!

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 3:34:13 PM #
Yes, I bet you never see a Palm running QuoVidas. My TRGpro, connected to a GPS 12, can also show where I am, move street-level vector maps in no time (really QUICK! No wait at all), and it's just a 16.5Mhz CPU.

It's not only the hardware. It's the software rules! Nowaday Microsoft always mislead people to purchase new hardware to run their huge monster softwares. It is rediculus! Other programmers can do much brilliant job with less computation power than Microsoft. Quo Vidas is a nice example here.

Be reasonable!
SilliconMan @ 10/11/2001 4:19:31 PM #

The m505 is what it is because there is very little hardware there at all.

If you get built in blue tooth and hi res, 16MBs of RAM with an SD slot on the side, THIN means impossible! With all that hardware these devices will become bricks.

I may carry a Clie, but you all seem so dependent on size over functionality, why would you even care about features!? You can't have a wafer of a Palm and have all those features!

Besides that....most everyone carries a cell phone..whats the point in small size of one device when 1 or 2 more are bricks!

Palming away.....

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 4:51:02 PM #
I wrote the original comment above that Palm needs to try harder. I stand corrected - a lot of people do in fact seem to feel that the size difference between the Clie and m505 is pretty significant. To me, it's not, but then I carry a Prism-brick, so they both feel pretty small to me.

I still think that Palm needs to do more than put out a high-res, better lit m505 by next spring. That's just not different enough from the Clie 610 - which by then will retail for what, maybe $299? - to beat it in the market.

What the necessary "more" is, though, I'm not sure. To me, it would probably mean a soft graffiti area. More screen means easier to use, in my book. But other people will certainly want something else. Palm's challenge for a high-end device is to incorporate features that most high-end buyers will be willing to pay for, not those that only a few will pay for. Bluetooth? Sounds to me like that falls in the latter category. (But fortunately, I only have to buy Palms, not sell them!)

- alanf

RE: Palm: Try harder!
Edward @ 10/11/2001 5:13:30 PM #
Regarding stree prices in the UK an m505 is 399. a Clie n770c (read European nN760c) is ... 399. Admitedly Dixons are giving away a free Psion IR to land line Modem with m505, and the m505 has better software and some minds a better form factor (although playing with them both today I'm tending Cliewards), but Sony are really pushing Palm and Handspring in the European market.

Btw a basic Colour Jornada is 199. Which is worrying.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 8:57:05 PM #
To those who says CLIE is brick, go to the Bestbuy or
COMPUSA and check it by yourself, you will know what you said is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE !

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 8:39:08 AM #
"I don't want to EVER see an hourglass on a handheld"


RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 12:08:54 PM #
Palm, hope you are reading this. Add a replaceable lithium-polymer battery for m525 model like the new PocketPC2002 PDA. Also, make sure that m525 lasts at least 15 hours before replacing the battery.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/12/2001 12:24:56 PM #
"I don't want to EVER see an hourglass on a handheld"

You've obviously NEVER seen a PPC in action. PPC uses a little colored dial that looks like a clock. There is not hourglass. So based on your statement, you'd be just FINE with a Pocket PC.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/13/2001 2:30:29 PM #
Colored dial... clock... hourglass...

all the same thing. when a handheld's #1 use is quick access to information, i don't want to wait.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/13/2001 2:31:28 PM #
I'm the one that called PocketPC's and even the Clie a brick.

Yes.. i'm exaggerating a bit... but my point is still valid. For me, personally, the Clie is still just a bit to tall and thick to comfortably carry it around in my pocket at all times.

I have been using a Vx for almost 2 years and have seen nothing that even tempts me to upgrade.

I love the high-res screen on the Clie... but it's of little use for me. I don't want to carry photos or videos and I don't care about the MP3 playback either.

The iPaq is the only PPC that I'd even consider. And the only way they got it as small as it is, is due to the fact that they don't include the CF slot. The new 3870 changes all that with a built-in SD slot AND bluetooth... all while maintaining almost the exact same size as current iPaq's.

Another thing I love about my Vx is that the battery life is outstanding. I go 4 weeks between recharges.. you can't say that about the BLOATED PocketPC.

RE: Palm: Try harder!
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/15/2001 9:31:01 PM #
"I love the high-res screen on the Clie... but it's of little use for me. I don't want to carry photos or videos and I don't care about the MP3 playback either."

Those who don't have Hi Res are quick to diminish it's value!

I LOVE the Hi Res not just to view beautiful, sharp photos of my kids, but also to read! Yeah... try reading a novel, your schedule, or phone numbers in Hi Res, and believe me, you won't want to go back!

It's like reading from a book!

Once Palm incorporates Hi Res into their devices, all the Palm m50x users will be RAVING about how NICE the Hi Res screen is! Today, "who needs it!"

too late

I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 2:33:17 PM #
i'm a palm user since 1998, but..., i'll buy a ppc this chistmas... sorry palm, too late for me.

RE: too late
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 3:37:14 PM #
I'm with you. The new iPaq has way to many features (goodies) to pass on. Bluetooth, JVM, Hi-Res, 16 bit Color, SD/MMC & CF, sound, and the list goes on.

How in the hell can Palm catch up. Palm still haven't confirmed the Hi-Res screens.

RE: too late
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/11/2001 3:39:49 PM #
I was at the PocketPC 2002 Launch in SF as Steve Ballmer spoke of the virtues of "Software Matters"
I was swayed by the enterprise stuff but on the whole, I'd have to say after careful consideration if you use your Palm mainly for PIM (Personal Information management)
Palm wins hands down in cost, battery life and size. Plus with all of these 3rd Party options you can edit MS Office docs, view photos, do WiFi, send and receive attachments, play with huge databases, etc etc.
These are important considerations that are easily overlooked when the press plays up multimedia features.

Granted I played with the iPaq, Genio E570, Jornada, Casio and Symbol but can't compare to the Palm.
If you want multimedia for about 3-4 hours then the PPC is a great addition, but nothing compares to Palm's software.
A dead brick with no power makes a good paperweight. (that goes for Clie too)

One thing I saw that was cool was a Toshiba Genio with a CF bluetooth card sending a pocketWrod doc to a Canon printer with an Anycom Bluetooth dongle.
I think that is where Palm is headed. As is Compaq with the bluetooth built into the new iPaq.
If you need multimedia that bad and still want to use Palm OS, go Clie.
The distinction is user experience!!
Oh Ballmer also said that the TabletPC is coming next year. So in my book, I'd go Palm for info management and a MS tablet for more intensive stuff.
Palm will and should have a 2 tiered platform: OS4 and OS5.

SIZE Matters!

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