Comments on: Hawkins Interview with Palm's Foleo Team

But that's JMO.

Pat Horne

How strange - I was just reminded by your post that I =do= want a cheap, carry around the house and to the pool laptop to do JUST surfing/email, pretty much.

And $200-$300 for a few hours in-between charges does fit that bill!

Hmmm...where's that credit card...

I agree. The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell. It is a very expensive device consisting of mediocre and buggy technology packed in a several year old design. I don't think the Foleo will sell more Treos, so why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange. I believe in the Foleo concept, but it has to be marketed as a phone campanion, this means has to work with Symbian, RIM, Linux and Microsoft, certainly not PalmOS Treos.

Uh, what? At about 4pm today Colligen will read out loud how many gazillions they sold recently. The Treo is Palm's one-trick-pony these days. Yes, the vultures are beginning to circle b/c of the obvious oncoming competition from the phone giants + Palm's unwillingness to produce technically compelling upgrades. But Treos obviously still have great name recognition and currently ship well. It's the near future that has Palm looking like a buyout target.

*why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange.*
They really don't market it as a "Treo" companion. It's called "mobile companion" and JH has repeatedly said that Palm will try to accommodate as many phones as possible. Your list is a very good one that I would expect to see. POS+Linux, WinMob, Symbian, & RIM.

*I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.*
I disagree for a couple of reasons.
First, "now" is not the time that Palm is focusing on this. Obviously, this kind of paradigm shift has taken the past few years behind the scenes. The price has been paid to a large degree b/c the first device is about to hit the shelves soon. Palm obviously shot itself in the foot with the horrible decision to spin off it's OS back when. The ramifications of that and the Palmsource collapse are obviously major factors in Palm's pathetic product roadmap since the Treo 650. It's been a 15mph school zone, not an interstate.
Also, I hope hope hope that Foleo's resources and brainpower contributed to that somewhat. In other words, I hope the worst of it is over and now the Treos can improve at a decent rate while the Foleo deployment and development builds steam. It looks like the unconnected PDA is finished, so Palm has it's eggs in two baskets. But the focus began a looong time ago in tech terms.
Second, next year would certainly be no better. Competition in the Smartfone market will be even greater for the Treos and the cry would be "not right now" then too. I don't know if Palm can pull off this companion vision or not, but I say this. They have to do something, and doing a features battle with Samsung, Nokia, SE, HTC & RIM is nothing more than a slow painful death. Palm knows that and so does the dark side. Foleo is something nobody else is doing. I mean nobody. That fact may be a blessing or a curse as we'll see. But, Palm is small. Small can innovate in a way that giants find difficult. Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary. Innovating is Palm's only chance for survival. The sooner the better too. Will they pull it off? ... story at 11. :-o

Pat Horne

It just seems odd for a device like Foleo to go after the smallest market segment available, to even consider it, at least from a marketing point of view. But then, maybe it is so generic that there is no major work to extend the Foleo to other operating systems?

Dude, that's just lame. Counting non-querty Symbian 60-series as "smartphones" comparable with the Treo is either a demonstration of your naivete or your agenda.

(1) Symbian can't sell zip in the US. But Treo's sell very, very well.
(2) Non-querty series-60 phones are pretty and all, but hardly functionally comparable to a Treo in real life.

The treo is capable of acting as a laptop replacement, with massive amounts of software and hardware available. It's a hugely successful platform, not a merely a ridiculously expensive yet pretty phone like the non-querty series-60 gadgets. I drive to a client, using the Treo as GPS, switiching between greek lessons on MP3 and concalls on speakerphone. I sync over the air with my home PC running Outlook, pull over, edit some powerpoint slides and send them on by email to a colleague. It just works.

Symbian? Dude, really.

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Perhaps a bit before it's time, it sure looks "big" and clunky.

But probably doable today.

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

I choose hotels the offer in room net access. More and more are doing so these days.

I choose cafes and restaurants that offer wifi. Popping up everywhere (even a local gas station offers free wifi!).

Hotels can offer them. Airlines and airports could offer them. Colleges could have them in dorms, lecture halls, classrooms, labs, student unions, ...

Perhaps you've been in a hotel with a business center. you know, computers, printers, net access available for anyone to use. The Western Wetherill Inn, in Kayenta, Arizona, the middle of nowhere, has a computer and printer for guest use. I've used it.

Maybe you've seen similar setups in airports, train and bus stations.

"Docks are not mobile."

Firm grasp of the obvious there kiddo ...

They are not meant to be. Small and portable AND big and stationary.

"If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET!"

If I'm camping I not gonna want to drag a Foleo with me. Likewise if I'm at a camp. Or at a picnic. Something like an iPhone would suit my needs much better then a wanna be laptop.

At home, at work, or in a hotel I can have a docking station. In a car a dock linked into the GPS and entertainment system, just add a keyboard.

I do other things on the toilet. But I suppose a docking station could be set up there. I've been in hotels with ethernet jacks in the bathroom so why not a docking station?

As to Foleo, for me, personally, I see it as the last gasp of a dying company.

Sad, very sad. Palm coulda been a contender.

MevetS

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.

I have a cabin in the country. No internet. I can carry my portable device, with all my data, with me when I go there. Drop it in the dock. And I'm not force to use a mini screen or a chicklet keyboard.

Note that the dock could be a full computer. Or it could be a Fooleo class device done right (screen, keyboard, mouse, with the portable device providing the processing power).

The key idea is that the portable device is truly portable (not pseudo portable like Fooleo) and the non-portable device is full size. A phone or PDA size device that I can drop in my pocket.

MevetS

Control your Treo from your desktop, use desktop to enter data into Treo... hmmmm...

The USB flash drive isn't mandatory - it would just be a convenient way of temporarily loading an environment of custom applications onto a host computer. Yes, the apps could instead be strictly Web-based, but that means an Internet connection would be mandatory in order to be able to work on a bigger screen. The apps could also reside on the (PalmLinux) Treo and then be accessed when connected to the host computer with a USB cable. If the Treo app is able to use PdaReach-like linking to the host computer and is (ideally) able to scale the Treo app up to fit the host computer's screen then all you would ever need is literally just your Treo and a USB cable. (Or even leave the cable at home if the process works over Wi-Fi.)

MotionApps has an application theat does basically this (scales to the host computer's screen size when the Treo is connected via USB or Wi-Fi) and hints at the Treo's future:

http://www.motionapps.com/mexpenses/_treo700p.jsp

This is an absolutely BRILLIANT concept, and plays perfectly into Hawkins' vision of the Treo as the PC of the future: apps and data residing on the Treo, but ALWAYS accessible from ANY computer.

I believe Palm intends to release a PalmLinux Treo with similar functionality . But first they need to ensure something like POSE works reliably under PalmLinux, so that legacy PalmOS apps are still supported. Then we'll see a series of PalmLinux apps that work both on the Treo and on a desktop/laptop screen when the Treo is connected. The biggest problem in all this is the SPEED at which Palm's software development has moved. If only these concepts had been ready for release 1 or 2 years ago...

TVoR

Uhm... actually, we don't, and I'm not.

The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users. Laptop users will never sacrifice the capability of a desktop OS. The question is, will people that currently travel without a laptop see value in the Foleo? I am thinking no, but we'll have to wait until it launches.

Indeed.

VL, I think you need to take a deep breath and slow down (as others have suggested). My post was not meant in any way to be an "encouragement" to anyone to go right out and pick up the Foleo the moment it hits the streets. Although I can imagine people who might really want this "first generation" device, I not at all convinced you are one of them. With how quickly you went from vowing to leave Palm forever over this failure of a product to believing that the Foleo is "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T", I'm afraid that less then 48 hours from the time you start using one you'll be back here bemoaning all of the limitations you didn't realize it had.

From everything I've seen so far, this Foleo is not being designed to be "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T." If that is what you expect, I'm afraid it will be nothing more than a terrible disappointment.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Back to today. The Kingston is good, but not yet large enough to handle all my data (I've got a four gig flash drive, but that isn't big enough; currently I need eight or more).
The MigoSync is quite intriguing, particularly because is allows for different hardware options. I'm not sure if I want that "much" sync, but it looks like it is a good option. I'm just using MS's SyncToy at the moment, so the work laptop and the external hard drive get synchronised and the laptop at home just accesses the external drive's files directly. It's free and simple to use. My guess is that it might even do quite a bit more than I'm currently asking from it.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

Gosh, thanks, "Michelle" a.k.a "PalmDiva." I hope you'll keep stopping by, sweetheart! ;)

I like the thumbdrive vision except that, like Ron, I want the flash memory to be inside my smartphone where I can access it without a PC.

The online sync stuff TVoR is talking about is not the future. It's the present. It's done, it's carrier grade, it runs on all the Treos and it's free open source software. If you want it, just go get it: http://www.funambol.com. Helio apparently liked it enough that it's the foundation for the contact sync capabilities of the Ocean and all their future handsets.

And I second the motion that VampireLestat needs to take a cold shower. He's getting his expectations on the first version of Foleo way too high right now which means he'll only be back here cursing again in a few months. Vamp: I hate to say this, but I really don't think Foleo is aimed at uber-enthusiast power users like yourself. Not right out of the gate. Initially, I expect it will be aimed at doing just a couple of things well: email and office docs. Try to temper your enthusiasm (which I share) with a good dose of realism and remember that the Palm PDA you use today wasn't the first one Palm ever released.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines...

Well, for one thing, most offices have firewalls. rsync can work through a firewall if you know what you're doing, but most client offices I've worked in also have the remote shell ports blocked so you have to get a network admin for a special favor that he most definitely does not want to give you.

If you really want to be mobile with your computing environment you learn quickly that the key is to figure out how to do an end-run around the gatekeepers: the IT department, the network admins, and the wireless carrier. It's the way that Foleo lets you work around the carriers' obstruction of dial-up networking that I find particularly clever. I've never been able to get a laptop to connect to the outside world from inside one of my client's buildings: not through ethernet (without a password for the proxy server), not through wifi (without a WPA key), and not by tethering to my phone (without risking monstrous penalties from the carrier). With a Foleo I can do it because it can use the smartphone to send and receive email and just sync to that. I've evaded all the gatekeepers.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

My mistake.

All of my data on my Palm "whatever" is just a slight "adjustment" to what I am doing now. And it's an adjustment with a lot of perceived advantage on my part. Always available everywhere I am with no cost of access. That's why I want all of that data on my Palm, because on a hard drive or a USB drive, I still can't access it while I'm mobile (without paying for that access).

Thanks for the suggestions. Someday someone just might teach an old dog new tricks.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Data redundancy. Plus, if a user has no Internet connection and is running the programs off the USB flash drive, then the modified files can be saved directly to the flash drive, allowing them to sync the data later on when they're at a computer with an Internet connection.

There are several different permutations and combinations that would work, but the bottom-line is that Palm needs to have a bulletproof syncing protocol in place, allowing wirelessly connected devices to exchange data with databases stored within a user's online folder. If Palm does not have such a system ready to roll out at this point in time then I doubt they have what it takes to pull off this type of an integrated system. Ironically, Palm is probably the ideal company to have come up with such a system, since they have the potential to profit from sales of components anywhere within the syncing chain. Most other companies (e.g. Microsoft, Apple etc.) would probably be too worried about compromising one of their mature revenue streams (e.g. OS sales, application sales, data transmission sales, etc.) to want to actively pursue this type of data exchange architecture. (It's just too easy to design a system that removes the importance of proprietary components that had previously been profitable for traditional companies.)

TVoR

Foleo = 5 hr
Treo = 3 hr

If you have both with you out in the field, that is 8 hours combined computing time.
The fast manual/auto syncing between F<>T makes it realistic I could be sharing the batt time. I could do all the quick typing on the Foleo and if the batt is dying I can then skip the Treo for my mainly consulting/reading mode tasks.

bipolar boy

And what did you learn?

Oh the pain they are in for!!

Then again, they might experience data loss as a sense of relief.

Paradoxical, but true.

First the iPhone battery life announcement and now this... His Steveness (Jobs) is the Undisputed Master of Media Manipulation (UMMM)

And I predict Palm will be amateurishly trying to do the same, except since they weren't able to get the software they wanted for the FOOLeo concept done in time they'll mainly have to stick to introducing 3rd party add-on applictions for their "applicationless" CRAPTOP:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9005/#133972

Is the FOOLeo shipping with ANY software??? W T F???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 11:03:52 AM #

So once again Palm is hoping developers will do their work for them and make all of the software the device needs. Well guess what: no one is going to be dumb enough to spend $500 on a FOOLeo and then go out and spend HUNDREDS MORE buying software Palm should have bundled for free:

PIM apps
Financial app
VNC app
FTP app
File manager
Zip utility
Backup utility
Photo viewer/editor
Database app
Video player
MP3 player
Word-compatible document editor*
Excel-compatible spreadsheet editor*

etc., etc

TVoR

* Does the included FOOLeo software edit + save MS Office applications in their native format?

I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

need to actually SHOW people the device in action

Amen to that.

Video #1:
Two people sitting down to a meeting where someone else is starting to speak. One starts to power up a Windows laptop while the other flips open her Foleo and starts taking down a note immediately. The Foleo user fires off an email to her assistant. As she starts to make a point in the meeting her Treo tells her she has a response. She hits the sync button and opens the attached document while she is speaking, quoting some information from the document to the meeting attendees. Then she turns the Foleo around and shows everyone a colorful PowerPoint graph that illustrates her point. The video ends with the Windows boot-up jingle and a sheepish look on the face of the laptop's owner.

Video #2:
Two business people are seated on a plane waiting for their flight to pull away from the gate. They each get notification of an incoming email on their mobile--one on his BlackBerry, the other on his Treo. Cut to a split screen showing the two devices and the open emails, which come from two different senders but say the same thing: "Zamco is ready to pick the vendor. The bid has to go out NOW!" The BlackBerry stands up to pull a heavy laptop bag from the overhead compartment, which swings down and whacks an attractive woman seated across the aisle from him. The Treo user slips his Foleo out of a small bag under his seat and it comes to life as he opens it on his tray table. He opens a Word document and an Excel spreadsheet, changes a date on one each, and sends them both as email attachments to the prospective client. The announcement comes over the PA that all electronic devices need to be turned off and stowed, which the Foleo owner accomplishes by just snapping his Foleo shut and slipping it back in his bag. The guy with the chunky laptop looks apologetically up at a surly flight attendant and says "ok, I'm turning it off." The screen still shows the Windows XP logo when he closes the lid. As he grunts to stow the bag back in the overhead bin the Windows boot-up jingle plays from inside the bag. The flight attendant and the woman seated across the aisle both give him another dirty look. The Foleo owner smiles and stretches out a hand as his competitor sits back down and buckles up.

Hopefully there are some good ad spots in the works, but since Palm has pre-announced, I think they need stuff like this on Palm.com (and YouTube) now, not at launch time.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Probably not for a couple years...when it's ready to be reviewed...

You may want to forward that test case to His Mossberg Hisself for when he DOES do a review - if ever:

-- walt@allthingsd.com

Yeah, that's probably an assistant but at least ya MIGHT be able to get past it to The Man.

>>>I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

Oh look. PIC has a brand-new reader.

ROTFLMAO.

People who use laptops to travel (i.e. the Foleo's target market) know these things.

Glad you liked my ad spots, though. They maybe unrealistic in some respects, but when did you ever see a TV ad for a technology product that wasn't? The point is not to faithfully record a laboratory bench test, it's to show what Foleo is good for. And I totally agree with you that Palm has not done a very good job of this to date.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby:

V=http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944#Pows

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-54305.html

The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby

Good, so we're agreed on everything I said but the first sentence. Glad we're clear on which of us was full of BS. ;)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Y'know, I've been trying to write an editorial for PIC on the Foleo ever since it was announced. The problem is that I have such mixed feelings on it, I can't actually seem to make any real points and it's just incoherent rambling. There are so many "buts": Foleo's form factor is great compared to the bulk of notebooks in its price range, but it doesn't let you do even half as much; Foleo has given us a new mobile operating system with huge potential, but Palm are once again leaving all the good stuff to the third-party devs; Foleo is open to those same third party devs, but there's no guarantee that they will flock to it the way they did to Palm's PDAs.

I'm trying hard to see Foleo's good points, but Palm haven't been helping. TVoR is right on the money - it needs to be marketed a helluva lot better, and it needs a better software package.

Apparently the iElectrons in the iBattery are iStronger. Do you DARE doubt His Steveness? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery.

Obligatory Futurama quote:
Melllvar: (thundering) I am not an effect! You doubt my power?!

Bender: (dismissive) I do.

Melllvar electrocutes Welshy.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

No doubt a lot of folks really need a laptop. But it's not at all obvious to me that these "cheap" laptops are either as cheap or as functional for many others as a Foleo.

- How about first we wait to see if the FOOLeo REALLY has 5 hour battery life.
- Then get a $30/month Sprint SERO plan for 500 anytime minutes, unlimited nights + weekends, free long distance, free roaming onto Verizon and FREE "UNLIMITED" EVDO ACCESS. If you needed cellphone service anyway then EVDO is basically "free".
- Add $125/3 = $42 for a shared "student" license of Microsoft Office (comes with 3 licenses).
- Avoid the extra $200 or so in software the FOOLeo will likely need to make it (barely) functional
- Avoid headaches of not having any software to use.

What are the totals now, Beersy?

Try again, Bubba.

TVoR

I'm guessing the latter because I don't think you're that dumb.

Hmmmm... I had over 500 MB in data usage on Saturday and the Sprint Men In Black never showed up. Go figure. And in case you didn't know, the carriers all cover their sorry a$$es with a lot of fine print in their data contracts. Even if you have signed up for a expensive "unlimited" monthly data package, it's the CARRIERS that get to decide if your usage pattern falls within what's acceptable to their Terms Of Service. I had a Sprint EVDO card and dumped it once I realized what a ripoff the data charges were compared to the SERO plan. I currently use my Treo 700p and the brilliant PdaNet for my laptop's Internet connection.

The sad fact of the matter is that the FOOLeo is an overpriced, poorly-speced microlaptop with limited software + a proprietary OS, and it comes from a company with zero history in selling/supporting such devices. Anyway you slice it, buying a FOOLeo is a tremendous leap of faith. Even you should be able to understand that casual users will get a much bigger bang for their buck by shopping for a Real Windows® laptop. Other than technophiles that enjoy playing with new classes of hardware, there aren't many other types of user that are better served buying a FOOLeo instead of a Real Windows® device.

It'll be interesting to find out what the REAL cost of ownership is with a FOOLeo, including the price for third-party applications that Palm - for one reason or another - chose not to include. Users looking at the software bundle that comes with an iPhone and comparing it to the apparently meager offerings seen on the FOOLeo are not going to be impressed.

Numerous other questions about the FOOLeo need to be raised, including:

- How good is the browsing experience when using the cell phone as modem?
- How quickly does syncing occur and how reliable is the process?
- Will each new application require a custom syncing conduit, or is there any standardized method through which all app data is transmitted?
- Is syncing user-initiated, does it occur in the background or is it configurable?
- Can syncing be turned on and off on an app by app basis?
- Can the FOOLeo's apparent multimedia limitations eventually be solved by software or will they require the classic "Treo 700p -> Treo 755p-style bug fix" (i.e. buy a new device in order to fix the old device's bugs)?
- Can the FOOLeo sync with online databases?
- How difficult is it to code apps for the FOOLeo?
- Can the FOOLeo support wireless streaming of MP3 or video?
- How many phones will the FOOLeo support when it is initially released? Six months later?
- etc, etc.

TVoR's crystal ball is predicting a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Hawkins household...

TVoR

the carriers all cover their sorry a$$es with a lot of fine print in their data contracts. Even if you have signed up for a expensive "unlimited" monthly data package, it's the CARRIERS that get to decide if your usage pattern falls within what's acceptable to their Terms Of Service.

That's exactly my point, thank you. Tethering your laptop is considered by Sprint to be against the TOS. You never know when you might be shut down because it's entirely at the discretion of the carrier. By shut down I mean drop you as a customer and send you a big bill.

Anyway, you're slipping, Voice. Since your idea is to make the laptop usage cheaper by trying to cheat Sprint for the wireless data, why not just steal a nice laptop and get the hardware and software for free? If you steal one from a Sprint employee you can get their email address and use it to apply for the SERO plan (which requires a referral by a Sprint employee). That would *really* have shown me up: how can Palm ever sell a Foleo when the whole country knows it can simply steal fully loaded laptops from hapless Sprint employees?

All your questions are great, by the way. I agree that the answers to questions like these could make or break the product. No way of knowing today, but hopefully we will soon. But we do know one thing: even if everyone cheats as you suggested, the "$500" laptop from Dell still costs $700 if you want it to run more than two hours or to edit Office documents. And it still weighs three times as much as the Foleo. The fact that people pay $1500 and up to get a laptop that is no more capable than the $500 Dell but is small and light like the Foleo should tell you something about the value that road warriors put on size and weight.

Here are some other questions I have about the Foleo:
-What happens if you close the lid during a sync? or walk out of range with the phone? Does it roll back an incomplete sync so you don't have corrupted data?
-Can you take a call while a sync is in progress?
-Can you use a Bluetooth headset while the phone and Foleo are paired?
-If both the headset and the Foleo are trying to pair to the Foleo, what happens?
-Is there an option to pair the Foleo with the smartphone by cable?
-When will Google add Opera support for Gears so you can run web applications in off-line mode?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

The reasons the Asus itself is not serious competition:
* It doesn't sync with your phone, so your email, contacts and other data can only be synchronized by hand
* It doesn't do MS Office email attachments (you have to run a converter to view Office docs in OpenOffice)
* No WWAN connectivity, so no Internet unless there's WiFi or Ethernet around
* No Bluetooth either, so you can't even occasionally try tethering to your phone and hoping you fly under your carrier's radar
* It has a shrunk-down keyboard (an inch narrower than the Foleo) that's uncomfortable to use and makes you look like you're hunched over a toy if you're at a conference table
* It has a tiny 7" screen
* It only claims 3 hrs of battery life

In short, it's a geek toy with a geek toy price, not a business device.

All stuff that a more formidable competitor than Asus could fix pretty easily. Palm should be concerned. IMO, Palm doesn't need to add a lot more features to the Foleo (PIM apps for version 1.0, better video support for 2.0) but it had better nail the synchronization piece (for end users and 3rd party developers) and it sure as heck better get its marketing house in order.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Just want to point out the foleo is 600 usd, that's the price Palm's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software. It way well go beyond 700$.

What would be more interesting would be to look at Windows XP laptops that weigh under 2.5lbs.

Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included

I wonder why *all* of these ultraportables are so much more expensive than a 6.5 lb Dell? Any thoughts on that?

No one--certainly not Palm and certainly not I--claims that a Windows laptop isn't loaded with features not found on the Foleo. If you think you need these features every time you travel around the country or the campus, Hawkins is explicitly saying that you're not a customer for the Foleo. Can we take that straw man off the table?

Since the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc. Couple that with the instant-on advantage, the built-in phone sync, the fact that you don't need a second wireless account to do WWAN wireless email with it (as you would with all the laptops listed above).... Sorry, but I find Palm's product strategy with the Foleo to be quite sound.

I'm more worried about the marketing and the execution. But until we get to the launch I'm going to leave the speculation to the rest of you and give Palm the benefit of the doubt.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

" the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc."

Not as many C-notes as you think . . . your math needs to includes Palm's assumption that you purchase a Treo as well.

"Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included"

Treo + Foleo = about $1200

Just want to point out the Inspiron 1501 is 600 usd, that's the price Dell's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software and 5 hr battery. It way well most definitely will go beyond 700$ $869.

The point is not so much that the FOOLeo is comparable to the Dell, but rather that the FOOLeo seems to offer rather poor value for the money.

What would be more interesting would be to look at Windows XP laptops that weigh under 2.5lbs.

Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included

I would add the Fujitsu P1610 to that list (starts at $1599 http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610). And you can also add a bunch of UMPC, as well as all the cheap microlaptops that will be coming out over the next few months. Any way you slice it, the FOOLeo is going to feel intense pressure from all sides of the market. I find it difficult to believe that a new $600 laptop from an inexperienced vendor, running a new proprietary OS, with a very limited number of applications available will have much of a chance to succeed, even if Palm tries to market the device by hitching a ride on the coattails of the Treo franchise. Hawkins decision to introduce the FOOLeo as a "Treo companion" underscores the lack of confidence that Palm has in the FOOLeo's ability to compete with similarly-priced or similarly-sized devices.

I wonder why *all* of these ultraportables are so much more expensive than a 6.5 lb Dell? Any thoughts on that?

Those of us who travel know that it's uncomfortable having to lug around laptops that weight anything much over 3 pounds. Desktop replacement laptops are simply unacceptable for traveling. Laptop manufacturers understand that small size/weight are one of the few remaining features that they can gouge consumers on, so they are continuing to milk this for as long as they can. As someone who has given up on desktops and uses an IBM X40 as their primary computing device, I feel that a 10 - 12 inch screen is the optimal compromise between portability, usability and viewability and I think most manufacturers will eventually standardize on this size for their "serious" ultraportable devices. "Microlaptops" (with screen sizes ranging from 4 - 8 inches) will likely remain niche devices, but may become popular as prices drop below $300. At that price point, these devices can essentially replace PDAs, allowing users to dump their smartphones in favor of tiny stylephones. On the other hand, a clamshell form factor smartphone the size of an iPhone would definitely complement the setups favored by a wide spectrum of users. It will be interesting to see if Apple sees a market for a clamshell device.

In the end, it seems likely that the market will be fragmented among devices ranging from 4 inch Linux and Real Windows® microlaptops and dumbphones to high end smartphones and desktop replacement laptops, with every conceivable permutation and combination mixed in for good measure.

No one--certainly not Palm and certainly not I--claims that a Windows laptop isn't loaded with features not found on the Foleo. If you think you need these features every time you travel around the country or the campus, Hawkins is explicitly saying that you're not a customer for the Foleo. Can we take that straw man off the table?

That's fair enough, Beersy, but the question becomes "Who IS the target market for the FOOLeo?" And why would they not choose a more functional or cheaper or smaller alternative? Right now, the ONLY theoretical advantage that the FOOLeo seems to have would be ease of syncing. And that's assuming that Palm has actually figured out how to do this properly. Furthermore, unfortunately for Palm, the competition likely will be able to roll out similar syncing abilities on other platforms with relatively minimal effort, as long as the focus remains the KISS principle.

Since the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc. Couple that with the instant-on advantage, the built-in phone sync, the fact that you don't need a second wireless account to do WWAN wireless email with it (as you would with all the laptops listed above).... Sorry, but I find Palm's product strategy with the Foleo to be quite sound.

Correction: The premium people will pay for "small and light [AND RUNNING REAL WINDOWS®]" seems to be 200 to 400%. And the price of admission to the "small and light [AND RUNNING REAL WINDOWS®]" playing field seems to be dropping every week. $600 for a crippled, proprietary device like the FOOLeo appears to be extremely "ambitious" pricing on the part of Palm.

I'm more worried about the marketing and the execution. But until we get to the launch I'm going to leave the speculation to the rest of you and give Palm the benefit of the doubt.

I'm MOST worried that Palm is rushing the FOOLeo to market(Cobalt-style, and it has now run out of time) and that the features the FOOLeo concept would need to differentiate the concept from the competition will be lacking. Without advanced syncing abilities, the FOOLeo doesn't have a snowball's chance in He11 of surviving versus its better/cheaper microlaptop competition.

TVoR

You just don't get it, do you? Autocad and Photoshop requires HUGE screens (min 21"), preferably 2. If you purchase a mini laptop to run Autocad, then you really are lost in this world.

I have seen two arguments against the Foleo that on the surface (at least) seems to be viable. I read them here somewhere http://www.trustedreviews.com/ , and they seem to condence "everybodys" dislike of the Foleo in two points:

1. A smartphone is supposed to free you from the laptop, not tie you to yet another laptop device.
2. If you have to carry a laptop sized device in any case, then you will go for a "real" laptop, not some scaled down and crippled substitute.

The error with number one is that the smartphones are NOT supposed to free you from the laptop. At best some of them can work as VERY crippled substitute because of the physical form factor constraints, more as emergency devices. In fact, the only phones that in some way can be considered as laptop *replacements* are the HTC X7500 (can hardly be called a phone), the Nokia E90 and only very marginally the HTC S710. The point is that when trying to replace the laptop with a smartphone, the device will become increasingly more unusable as a phone. Most (at least 90%) of the smartphones focus on phone, music, messaging, PIM, camera, multimeda and so on, or probably better put; a smartphone is a fusion of an ordinary phone and a PDAs. They are not in any way trying to replace the laptop.

The error with number 2 is that it confuses form and function. I think the same issue will surface en mass when the iPhone comes out because people tend to think of it in terms of a phone. The iPhone is a multimedia machine with phone *capabilities*. As a phone it is very limited and unpractical, as a smartphone it is a complete joke. People carry small laptops because there are no alternative when a keyboard and decent screen is needed. If you want to show Autocad drawings etc, you would bring a large laptop, not a small one. You would bring a Foleo if all you need is web, documents, email. If that is what you need, then instant on/off, weight, size is MUCH more important than being able to watch DVDs, play games, work with Autocad etc.

* There is such a thing as too low a price. Maybe not for people who live out of their mother's basement, perhaps, but for business people that consider price when evaluating whether something is a toy or a business tool.

* Products that aim to define a new category should, if anything, be priced high. The Pilot 1000 was overpriced for the miniscule features and applications it included. So were the first Treos, which aside from the added voice and messaging capability, actually had reduced feature sets from the much cheaper Visors that Handspring had been selling. Same with the iPhone. Initially you don't want to rush mass adoption. You want to sell first to the people who see the highest value in it and will pay something of a premium. This cultivates a sense of exclusivity, but more importantly it gives you the time and feedback you need to see how the product needs to be improved.

Voice (should we call you "Michelle" now?): you should go read "Five Myths of Consumer Behavior" if you want to be able to speak with the authority that your imperious tone suggests. Your approach to product development is the typical one that an engineer takes: the only thing you can imagine that a customer wants is more features and specs. That approach has doomed hundreds of technology products to the trash heap of history. Because consumers don't care about feature and spec lists like you do. They care that the product delivers on the one value proposition you make to them. For the Foleo that proposition is a superior wireless email experience, including full support for MS Office attachments.

The more out-of-the-box features Palm adds to the Foleo, the more the primary value gets clouded and confused in the eye of the potential customer. Add features too early in the adoption curve and guess what? Then consumers do see Foleo as nothing more than a PC: generic, complicated, something that's probably going to take time to learn and manage and that has all this "stuff" that they don't really care about. That's when Palm is really in trouble, because the only people who will buy at that point are the ones who share your mindset: the one where only a full-blown PC will do for them.

The trick to marketing Foleo, I'm convinced, is differentiating it from anything else on the market--especially from generic PCs. It's got to be seen as a dedicated tool that does a few things well and accomplishes them without the hassle or expense that a PC imposes. That's how all Palm's successful products have won the market. The poster child for a Palm product that failed because it didn't provide a tightly focused solution (just a big bag of features and specs) is the LifeDrive.

It's a good thing that we have companies like Microsoft around, but the world is also sorely in need of technology companies that understand that computing needs to be simpler, that less is often more. That approach may be intensely frustrating to enthusiasts who want to push their technology products to the limit (if you're reading this, that's probably you). But it's a pretty sound strategy for selling to the masses who don't love their computers or think about them all day and would just like a product that is simple and does what it's supposed to.

Voice, it's surprising to me (or maybe it isn't) that after all these years you've been obsessing about Palm and its products you still don't get the one thing that accounts for Palm's success: simplicity.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

But if it is Linux and it is software then, in a blink of an eye, someone will have written the same functionality into something that is usable on any hardware.

After all, PALM itself said the Fooleo wasn't just for TREOs but ANY smartphone with the software for the OTHER phones written elsewhere - suggesting full disclosure of everything one nees to mimic the Fooleo side as well.

I'm guessing it's pretty basic hotsync stuff, not the kind of sync that Palm is shooting for (will Palm hit?). Nonetheless, there it is, a "Palm Pilot Tool" already available right out of the box. Sweet.

Hopefully the 1001 will not be priced way higher (10 inch screen). Hopefully it has Bluetooth already (I haven't seen that in any of the specs) that can connect with the handheld in drive mode (meaning that all my data could conceivably remain on my handheld, and I wouldn't need to shell out for the 16 gig version just to have the data availble; I don't want to have to tether it with a cable every time or continuously have to pull move the memory card back and forth). And hopefully that keyboard is "bearable" (a complete "deal killer" from my perspective).

The "Foleo" has me curious and wondering about all the possibilities of where this might be going. It's something I can imagine wanting in the future if they make some of the changes I want. But this "cheap little" thing is at at a minimum an incremental step in that direction (and might be an even bigger step than I'm currently understanding) that I can imagine wanting right now.

Seriously, I'd consider just giving one of my Dell laptops to my wife or one of my kids and picking of the cheapest Eee as a replacement just to find out what it can do, i.e. how much it can be tweaked into becoming my "handheld companion". (For those of you who aren't married with children, considering how one's family members might react to the purchase of yet another "gadget" is not only being appropriately sensitive, but also wise. I can't use David's excuse: "Honey, it's research for my business.") ;-)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Talk to Ed Zander about your idea that lower prices are always better. 48% drop in profits last quarter... mmm mmm mmm. Palm's done very well starting new products at a bit of a premium to their ultimate price target and then steadily dropping the price or adding feature as new versions come out. The company and its products wouldn't be here today otherwise.

Either way, $500 is a good price for a serious business device with Foleo's light weight and excellent ergonomics, if it works as Palm says.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Anyway, the logical fallacy in your subject line is called the "reductio ad Kirvinum." And it means YOU LOSE.

See ya, chump.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Really? That's nuts! I smell PowerRUN, Foleo Edition coming...

Really? That's not nuts! ;) Serves me right for not following the links.

Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was released before it was ready....

I must have missed something.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

I must have missed something.

From the things you say it's obvious that you miss A LOT, Bubba.

In case you can't find your laxatives today, you can read the previous statement as "Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it was ready..."

Stay in school, Kids.

TVoR

(I'm going to simply ignore SV. I don't think he's getting much of anything.)

Wait a minute... are you saying you believe Palm will fix the numerous problems with the FOOLeo before it gets released? Care to place a bet on that? Sucker. $100 to the charity of your choice says the FOOLeo will be released without the bulk of its "issues" fixed:

- No bundled PIM apps
- No bundled email app that can download mail without the need for a Treo
- Inadequate RAM
- Inadequate processor
- Inability for included email application to sync with third party PalmOS email apps like ChatterEmail
- Inability to play video (including YouTube) properly
- Inability to have tabs in/multiple instances of the included browser
- Inability to sync with phones other than a Treo
- Lack of included application to stream MP3
- Lack of robust security
- Lack of included VNC application
- Lack of application suite (web or desktop-based) for syncing to online databases
- Unrealistic price
- Lack of multiple dedicated buttons for rapidly launching applications

If Palm fixes more than 50% of these problems, name your charity.

"Sweetheart"? Go **** yourself, Beersy. I posted the FACTS (straight from Palm's site), which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

If you tether a device (be it a Windows machine or a Foleo) to your phone and you exceed what the carrier considers to be allowable under its TOS (an amount that is unpublished and, as you yourself pointed out, is wholely at the discretion of the carrier) you will have your service terminated and you will receive a big, nasty bill.

If users exceed an unknown (arbitrary) amount of data transfers, then the carriers may terminate their contract.

What the Foleo does by design is let you work around this with local sync. Internet usage *from the handset* is unlimited with most data accounts--grab all you want and never worry about a TOS violation. So the idea is you can grab all your latest email, feeds, documents, (eventually music, video, etc.) from the phone and then sync them over to the Foleo. You could be on a plane with your phone disconnected from the network and still do the sync. And you can avoid the TOS violation no matter how much bandwidth you consume.

What you don't seem to understand is that data transfers can be considered excessive even if they are merely being sent directly to a phone rather than to a secondary device connected by tethering. The carriers likely are not extremely concerned if users download a small amount of data via a cellphone and then send the data to a secondary device by various means, including Bluetooth, direct cable connection or FOOLeo syncing. Yes, all things being considered they would prefer that everyone sending data to a secondary device pony up for an expensive data-only contract, but their main concern is the potential for abuse of the networks with excessive data transfers. Which is precisely why even so-called "unlimited" data packages aren't truly "unlimited":

http://www.sprintpcs.com/common/popups/popLegalTermsPrivacy.html

To protect our network, Services, or for other reasons, we may place restrictions on accessing certain Data Content (such as certain websites, applications, etc.), impose separate charges, limit throughput or the amount of data you can transfer, or otherwise limit or terminate Services. If we provide you storage for Data Content you have purchased, we may delete the Data Content with notice or place restrictions/limits on the use of storage areas. You may not be able to make or receive voice calls while using data Services.

Specific Terms & Restrictions On Using Data Services
In addition to the rules for using all of our other Services, unless we identify the Service or Device you have selected as specifically intended for that purpose (for example, wireless routers, Data Link, etc.), you can’t use our data Services: (1) with server devices or host computer applications, or other systems that drive continuous heavy traffic or data sessions; and (2) as a substitute or backup for private lines or frame relay connections. We reserve the right to limit or suspend any heavy, continuous data usage that adversely impacts our network performance or hinders access to our network. If your Services include unlimited web or data access, you also can’t use your Device as a modem for computers or other equipment, unless we identify the Service or Device you have selected as specifically intended for that purpose (for example, with "phone as modem" plans, Sprint Mobile Broadband card plans, wireless router plans, etc.).

Allow me to simplify things for you: If you think you're going to be able to use a FOOLeo to sync over massive amounts of data (e.g. streaming multimedia) acquired by a Treo then you're sadly mistaken. Whether a user is sending large quantities to a laptop via tethering vs. to a FOOLeo via syncing (presumably a Bluetooth connection) is irrelevant. They're still overloading the carrier's network and will be dealt with accordingly.

Here's an old thread discussing this type of issue:
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=43680

That's it. No "free Internet." (Except free WiFi.) Just a wireless device that helps you avoid getting your wireless service terminated. If you already own a smartphone with a data plan, there's no *extra* cost.

Wrong as usual, Beersy. The only way that the FOOLeo "helps you avoid getting your wireless service terminated" is that it's currently such a crippled device that it would likely discourage you from using it in ways that would rack up heavy amounts of data downloading. If the FOOLeo was as capable a multimedia device as a Real Windows® laptop then users would be interested in acquiring large amounts of data just like Real Windows® users do.

The point about the Windows laptop costing you more to use was that if you want to do all those things you can't do on a Foleo, including watching YouTube or downloading music and movies, you *definitely* are going to want a wireless card for that laptop and a data plan for it, because those are *exactly* the high-bandwidth scenarios that have got people shut down when they did them by tethering the phone.

Nice attempt to weasel out of your ridiculous attempt to Astroturf for the FOOLeo, Beersy. Sounds like you're admitting that the only reason the FOOLeo puts users less at risk of running afoul of the carriers' data limits is because the FOOLeo is crippled as a multimedia playing device. Furthermore, what you don't seem to understand is that even if they user purchases a "wireless card for that laptop and a data plan for it", they STILL don't get "unlimited" data transfers. The carriers can still shut a user down if the carrier deems that (in their opinion) "excessive" bandwidth is being used:

We reserve the right to limit or suspend any heavy, continuous data usage that adversely impacts our network performance or hinders access to our network.

It's a good thing that you're not a lawyer - all of your clients would either be dead or in jail. Stay in school, Kiddo.

TVoR

So to summarize: if you need to be downloading/streaming stuff all the time for your mobile computing world to work for you, not only is the Foleo the wrong product for you, but so is a tethered PC or the Asus, etc. That isn't a limitation of Foleo, that's a limitation of your carrier.

Beersy, I merely pointed out that the so-called advantage of the FOOLeo that you had touted (saving on data transfers) is in fact non-existent for many (most?) customers.

The Foleo still gives you better access to data off the cell networks because some carriers (Cingular is particularly notorious) block dial-up networking via the phone altogether unless you have a special account. For example, I could do email with a Foleo paired to a Cingular Treo, whereas I can't do it with my Nokia N800 tethered to the it: Cingular just says "no dial-up unless you pay extra." Now you understand why Palm has the disclaimer that dial-up networking.

That's a pretty weak argument for buying a FOOLeo. You're REALLY reaching here.

You've wandered so far away from talking about what all the people in Palm's target market need that the discussion is pretty pointless now. Pointing out the obvious advantages (cost, ergonomics, instant start-up, simplicity...) only forces you into a corner where you have to resort to ad hominem attacks. That makes me look like I'm talking with the screaming drunk that lives outside the Greyhound station, which wastes my time, agitates you unnecessarily, and annoys bystanders with your racket.

Wow - "the screaming drunk that lives outside the Greyhound station..." Nice attempt to smear me in the hope no one will notice you got DESTROYED in this little debate. Try again.
So you consider the FOOLeo's cost an advantage? Odd, since most people seem to feel cost is one of the device's (multiple) Achilles heels.
Assessment of ergonomics will have to wait until the device is released, but Palm's failure to include multiple buttons for launching PIM (or other user-chosen) applications is rather odd given the device's much-touted "instant-on" capability.
Instant startup is a nonissue due to the option of using "suspend" mode on Real Windows laptops.
"Simplicity" is not an advantage when it's more accurately termed "simplistic" and when missing features prevent the device from being used to do all the things that a 2.5 POUND Real Windows laptop can do.

Unlike many of the posters here and elsewhere, I'd really have to get my hands on a Foleo before I was willing to pass judgment on its value to its target market or competitive prospects. I think the product concept is quite good, and I am reading signs that there has been some attention to detail with the ergonomics and build quality, which is encouraging. But I trust my own judgment more than anything I read on the web and, sheesh, the product specs and software haven't even been finalized yet. I've applied to the developer program and hope to hear something soon, but until then I think I've basically said my piece.

It's not hard to judge the device based on its high price and limited features. The FOOLeo obviously is being rushed into production before Palm has finished its software, so the product will be crippled when it arrives. Users will apparetly be dependent upon Palm and third party developers to add features that should have been standard from Day 1. VERY interesting business model, Palm... The fact that the FOOLeo can't even download email without the help of a Treo effectively limits the device's market to Treo owners... who are willing to buy a 2.5 POUND non-Windows laptop... that doesn't have much software... and costs $600. The lack of included PIM applications is laughable. The lack of tabbed browsing is inexcusable. Palm's decision to release the FOOLeo in it's current (beta) state is reminiscent of PalmSource's "release" of Cobalt in December 2003. I expect the end result may very well be the same...

Sorry this seems to have been a bit of a trauma for you, and my apologies to the rest of PIC for feeding the troll.

"Trauma"? "Troll"? How dramatic of you, Beersy. Is this your way of running off with your tail between your legs? As usual, you have been exposed to be full of sh!t. As usual, you Exit Stage Left with a flourish, hoping no one will remember how badly you FOOBARed all of your lines while onstage. Take care.

TVoR

Already doing it. Beersy plays my biotch.

TVoR

Why should you get to have all the fun? :) Besides, you stopped making new points about Foleo three days ago. If the "discussion" was to continue I had to work with what you gave me. :)

[Insert nervous little laugh from Beersy above]
Beersy, you continue to struggle with expressing yourself. Perhaps because your position (and intellect) are so weak? Hmmmm?

>>>Who is this "Michelle", you keep referring to?

Do you really want to go there, you sad little man?

Please "Go there" and show us you're even more of a buffoon as evidenced by your recent blithering posts. The spittle is running down your chin again. Do you need a bib?

Anyway, I'm done now.

Suuuure you are. As Palm's unofficial Palm Apologist Biotch you'll keep coming back to post increasingly ridiculous excuses for the company's failure to execute. And as usual, when confronted with The Ugly Truth, you cowardly attack the messengers and then run away.

TVoR

In case you happen to be unclear, the point is that it's fabulously hypocritical for you to take anyone to task for "attacking a poster" considering that you've been--with absolute, unfailing consistency--the one the most guilty of this by far, and by an extremely wide margin.

Well if it isn't David Schlesinger, PalmSource senior manager. Do you have any useful information to contribute to this discussion, David or are you merely complaining about TVoR as usual? Beersy dug his own hole by spewing B.S. attempting in vain to defend Palm's questionable decisions. It's touching to see you ride in on a white stallion and try to rescue the bearded maiden Beersy, but I would suggest you get your own house in order before trying to save someone else.

How are things going with your company's still-unseen ALP-OS (nee Cobalt)? Do you think we'll see any devices running ALP-OS before 2009? Or EVER? It sounds like Palm got fed up with waiting for PalmSource to deliver a next-generation operating system and had to go and cobble one together for themselves. That doesn't reflect too well on PalmSource, now does it? Remind me how much money was spent developing Cobalt?

Take care, David. Hugs and kisses, as always.

TVoR

I guess you weren't able to grasp that. Do you need me to use smaller words or something...?

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, David. So Beersy attacking TVoR and cowardly running away from his (losing) position is justifiable in your mind because you feel that TVoR has previously attacked posters? Wow. Get a clue, Bubba.

>>>...PalmSource senior manager...

ACCESS director, actually. You're clearly misinformed.

Is this your way of announcing to the world that you've received a promotion, David? Are you THAT insecure that you need for everyone to know what a "Big Bossman" you are at Access? How pathetic. Congratulations, by the way. I hope your employer is still in business in two years. Make sure you keep that résumé up-to-date...

>>>How are things going with your company's still-unseen ALP-OS (nee Cobalt)?

"Unseen"? It's been seen at a variety of events, including 3GSM and CTIA, by thousands of people, and at a number of other places, several of which I detailed for you in previous responses. If you want to see it, feel free to make an appearance at LinuxWorld (if you have the courage), I'll be happy to demo it personally for you.

Things are going extremely well, as I informed you in some detail the last time you asked--try actually reading the responses you get, your own replies might be better-informed and not give the impression that you've got serious difficulties with your short-term memory. And, just to address your obvious confusion, the ACCESS Linux Platform is not in any way a rewrite or reimplementation of prior efforts.

And as I believe I told YOU before, anyone can do product demonstrations and tout vaporware at conferences until the cows come home. ALP-OS' spiritual predecessor, Cobalt was the prime example of such a strategy. (Anyone willing to pay for floor space at these conventions/conferences can demo whatever vaporware crap they've cobbled together in their basements.) Unfortunately for you, showing up at LinuxWorld (are you going to have another dumba$$ Segway to give away this year?) is rather meaningless in the big scheme of things. Until you have phones actually running ALP-OS available in the market then your OS remains about as relevant as Cobalt is today.

>>>Do you think we'll see any devices running ALP-OS before 2009? Or EVER?

No question, once again as I told you the last time you asked. We're anticipating seeing devices coming out in early 2008, which--by my reckoning--is indeed before 2009. If you don't listen to the answers you get, but continue asking the same questions over and over, providing you with the same answers time after time is going to get tedious for me.

"Early 2008"? Yeah, right... we'll believe that when we see it. No doubt those phones will be released along with the "dozens" of Cobalt devices that are now currently several years overdue.

Work on that reading comprehension, eh? Maybe sounding out the big words would help.

Perhaps you should be more concerned with Access working on getting a functional OS into the market.

>>That doesn't reflect too well on PalmSource, now does it?

I don't see how your uninformed suppositions reflect one way or another on ACCESS, actually.

David, don't feel bad just because PalmSource failed to deliver a stable operating system to Palm. No doubt the rejection still stings. Do yo still cry yourself to sleep like the geeky little Emo Kid you are? But remember: It wasn't just Palm that utterly rejected Cobalt. It was every PalmOS licensee that told PalmSource to go fcuk itself and go fix that steaming pile of feces that you had shipped to them.

So now it looks like Palm has plans to graft POSE onto their version of PalmLinux and completely cut Access out of the loop forever. Try not to cry, David. Maybe some low-budget Asian handset manufacturers will license ALP-OS for use in a low-budget phone. Just don't count on cashing in any big licensing checks anytime soon. Or EVER.

Take care, little buddy.

TVoR

P.S.

If you ever come up to The City, check out Sushi Ran in Sausalito (too loud and Yuppie-ish for my tastes) or Sushi Gourmet in Strawberry Village (Mill Valley). And remember what I told you about Ottawa.

The online reviews corroborate this:

"The service is discriminatory and arrogant...As for the food, it's about average."

"...after being ignored for over 1/2 an hour by the staff and then being admonished for asking for water and menues we decided to leave. I've never felt more unwelcomed at a restaurant. I felt as if we were an inconvenience to them."

"Consistantly rude staff, don't seem to care one way or another if you visit their business. Food alright but plenty of other places in Ottawa."

"This restaurant SHOULD BE CLOSED DOWN....the buffet was AWFUL...cold, dry, salty, and not many choices."

"The portion was ridiculously small and was not freshly made. I even got the wrong dish brought to me but was too tired/hungry to complain and the rice dish I had gotten had a top layer that was dried out and was so very hard and unappealing."

Oh, this is interesting: "...we found SMALL WHITE MAGGOTS crawling around on our food." Nice.

Seems like your recommendations have about as much substance to them as your other comments. I'll find my own restaurants, thanks.

Thanks for doing such a terrific job of demonstrating my point: you don't mind dishing out abuse to all and sundry, and in the basest possible terms, but let someone give you back even a little of the same treatment, and suddenly you're whimpering about "attacking the poster".

Yawn.

Giggle.

I see. But I should take your word for where to eat...? Doubtless this is because you've proven to be so sensible and trustworthy in the past...

"you can lead a horse to water, but you can make him drink (bukkake-style)"

Not to mention showing such impeccable taste. Clearly you're not someone whose drinking (or eating) recommendations I want to take with less than a mineful of salt...

Do me a favor, and don't do me any "favors", hm? As I've said, I definitely don't need your "help".

By the way, you'd probably be much happier with the ramen down at Maruichi on Castro: the food isn't very good and the service sucks there, too.

I see. But I should take your word for where to eat...? Doubtless this is because you've proven to be so sensible and trustworthy in the past...

Methinks SOMEONE needs to stand up and get the knots out of his panties...

"you can lead a horse to water, but you can make him drink (bukkake-style)"

Not to mention showing such impeccable taste. Clearly you're not someone whose drinking (or eating) recommendations I want to take with less than a mineful of salt...

Come on now, David. We all know you have an acquired taste for "Man Milk". Don't be shy.

Do me a favor, and don't do me any "favors", hm? As I've said, I definitely don't need your "help".

'Cause you're a BIG BOY now, right? Mamma's SO proud of her BIG BOY!

By the way, you'd probably be much happier with the ramen down at Maruichi on Castro: the food isn't very good and the service sucks there, too.

Smile when you say "service sucks" in the same sentence as "Castro" in San Francisco. But then again, you know all about suckage in the Castro.
By the way, what do you think about Palm's new Fellateo laptop?

Hugs & Kisses & Reacharounds (as always)
TVoR

That'd be Castro Street in Mountain View, you puerile chowderhead.

Did I say YOU were talking about The Castro, David? Read the post again and decide for yourself. Ooops! Don't worry - I forgive you.

By the way, another review of your favorite place from ChowHound: "I've had some pretty horrible Indian at Haveli and Bombay Masala; I thought the local Indian ex-pat population might drive demand for something better."

The evidence strongly suggests that what you "know" and what's actually so are two completely unrelated things. Again. No surprise there.

If you're dull enough to trust online reviews then that explains why you continue to work for PalmSource/Access: only the dullest of the dullards stayed on to go down with that sinking ship. (Hey buddy, is Palm licensing ALP-OS? Bwahahahaha!)
By the way, I believe I had recommended a particular SOUP for you to try at Haveli. If you actually know ANYONE in Ottawa, ask them if they've had that soup there. You're too funny.

I'm not surprised that a Man Chowder afficianado like you would be depending on ChowHound for direction in your life...

>>>But then again, you know all about suckage in the Castro.

Let me know when they finally stop keeping you held back in the fifth grade; maybe I'll send flowers. In the meantime, best of luck keeping the bigger children from beating you up and stealing your lunch money.

5th degree black belt? Nope, not yet, but hopefully in a few years.

Take care, buddy.

TVoR

P.S. What's happened to you? The quality of your repartee has taken a definite turn for the worse these days. Are you under a lot of stress with Access? Slippage got you down? Awwwww...