Comments on: Palm Cancels the Foleo

It's Good News. Duh.

Fooleo, We Hardly Knew Ye.

And that post you linked to? Was about how Engadget need to get over themselves. If you think Palm's decision was based solely on their editorial, you're nuts.

>It's overpriced for the meagre hardware it runs on, I agree. But it's innovative in a way that most hardware-
>driven upgrades are not. I think it deserves more respect than it's been getting.

Freak, the quote is from you. You now say cancelling the Foleo is a "good thing" yet you were extolling Foleo's nonexistent virtues a few days ago.

Take off your blinders and stop being a Palm apologist.

We're all aware of what became the defacto operating system standard [Windows] at the time. As a result there was no market whatsoever for hardware that didn't work within the framework of that operating system. As a defacto operating system did take over, all other operating system markets and competition failed one after the other and the hardware manufacturers found themselves marketing for an ever shrinking range of software rather than the other way around.

Hardware has since become subservient to the operating system. It started around 1994 and is just as true today 13 years later. Worse yet, all the hardware manufacturers slowly bought each other out, further shrinking the hardware choices. So now the hardware manufacturers just make faster and bigger versions of everything that has been done before. We're still plugging in faster CPUs, more RAM, bigger hard drives, faster graphics cards and sound cards just to service the operating system. Hardware driven innovation cannot be afforded by the market any more. There is no money in it. There will be no market for it. Computers are boring.

......

So Linux was created to service the home desktop personal computer, and the PC is here to stay. For those who were looking for some excitement and enjoyment in using their computer, the defacto operating system just doesn't cut it. We want to tinker, we want control, we want power over everything. Or alternatively we believe in some sort of freedom or some combination of the above. So we use Linux. That is certainly how I got involved in Linux; I wanted something to use on the home desktop PC.

However, the desktop PC is crap. It's rubbish. The experience is so bloated and slowed down in all the things that matter to us. We all own computers today that were considered supercomputers 10 years ago. 10 years ago we owned supercomputers of 20 years ago.. and so on. So why on earth is everything so slow? If they're exponentially faster why does it take longer than ever for our computers to start, for the applications to start and so on? Sure, when they get down to the pure number crunching they're amazing (just encode a video and be amazed). But in everything else they must be unbelievably slower than ever.

Computers of today may be 1,000 times faster than they were a decade ago, yet the things that matter are slower.

The standard argument people give me in response is 'but they do such more these days it isn't a fair comparison'. Well, they're 10 times slower despite being 1000 times faster, so they must be doing 10,000 times as many things. Clearly the 10,000 times more things they're doing are all in the wrong place.

I think he's dead on the money. Palm built, from the ground up, a customised implementation of Linux that was instant-on and instant-off. Applications opened instantly. No need to save documents etc. To my mind, this is very impressive. Certainly more so than "Hey, here's yet-another-laptop - but it has a 2.3 instead of 2.1 ghz processor! Wow, awesome!"

If Palm proved anything with the Foleo, it's that they indeed have the talent and the capability to create a modern OS with innovative features that no-one else is attempting. They simply don't have the resources to support seperate OS's for both the Foleo and their smartphones. That, and the extraordinarily negative reaction it received, led to the decision to cancel it. It's a smart business move for Palm.

Thus, this decision is good news. It means that Palm will be able to focus all their talents on one platform, instead of splitting their attention across two. It also means they'll be able to take their idea of applications that sync across devices much further than the puny email syncing we saw with the Foleo. And it also means that if there is a Foleo II, they're going to have had a lot more time to put in the software that the original should have included.

It's quite disappointing that they've had to cancel it. But if one examines the decision objectively, then one can only conclude that it was the right call. It's good news. It would have been bad news if the Foleo OS was what was going to appear on smartphones in '08 - it would have meant there were serious problems. But since they've now explained that these were two seperate platforms, cancelling the Foleo seems an eminently sensible idea, both from a business perspective and for Palm's customers.

But you're not really interested in a real discussion. You just want a flame war. Sorry, not taking the bait today.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

On the other hand, if Foleo's OS was an entirely seperate project, then cancelling it makes sense: Palm is a small company with limited resources and supporting & developing two seperate operating systems is a lot to handle.

There's no contradiction here: Foleo's a great idea, but version 1.0 was a misfire. It's not that hard to see both sides of the coin.

the desktop PC is crap. It's rubbish. The experience is so bloated and slowed down in all the things that matter to us. We all own computers today that were considered supercomputers 10 years ago. 10 years ago we owned supercomputers of 20 years ago.. and so on. So why on earth is everything so slow? If they're exponentially faster why does it take longer than ever for our computers to start, for the applications to start and so on? Sure, when they get down to the pure number crunching they're amazing (just encode a video and be amazed). But in everything else they must be unbelievably slower than ever.

Tim's right: Palm needs to have a single, unified, Palm-branded software platform. If Palm has a better idea for how its smartphone OS needs to be done (for example, one that will better meet what the carriers are demanding today) then Foleo needed to be pulled from the market until it could be reloaded with that new OS. Otherwise, Palm would be saddled with three platforms, two of which were up to them to maintain and extend. Likewise third parties that wanted to support Palm products would be developing against three different SDKs, which takes a pretty big commitment and limits Palm's ecosystem.

There are a few other reasons why rushing the Foleo to market wasn't ideal for Palm. As people have pointed out, a lot of your initial expectations of a device that looks like the Foleo is that it has a big library of software. Even if it addresses a serious pain point with just a few apps it's naive to think people are going to "get" that in the immediate way you need to market the product. I expect that when the Foleo is relaunched there will already be a sizeable software library ready because apps that developers created for the new Treos will be easy to tweak to run on Foleo.

What else has been seriously missing in the build-up to release of Foleo? How about announcement of BlackBerry support? I'm not sure how serious Palm is about this, but if they really plan for Foleo to work with other smartphones they should have BlackBerry in their pocket at launch time. That would probably require partnering with RIM to develop a sync module that runs on the device and has access to BB's email store, but it would be huge if they can do it before the re-release. The buzz would be quite a bit more positive, I think.

There's one other thing to think about. The Foleo team really nailed a lot of things that no other mobile Linux project I know of has done. Their OS is so much snappier than Maemo or the Zaurus operating systems and it seems to have very good power management. These low-level traits are critical to Palm's smartphone platform as well. So here was Palm, whose primary business is smartphones, with most of its best Linux talent tied up on the Foleo team. That's a problem.

All this time I've been wondering why Foleo was being rushed to market. I assumed it was the marketing department thinking Palm desperately needed a new product. That still could be true, but I wonder if it wasn't also that Palm needed its smartest people like Ben Combee over on the smartphone project and had to wait for them to get the core functionality and APIs of the Foleo done before they could do that. When it looked like they weren't going to be able to get Foleo where it needed to be without those people and their internal smartphone development was at risk of slipping without them, they had to make a tough decision.

Anyway, I'm really disappointed, but not just because Foleo has been put on a back burner. It's because despite the factors just mentioned it really was a sweet little system. The team that developed it deserves some respect.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Let he who is without Shift cast the first stone.

Now STFU about it.

And you still haven't answered my question about the disposition of your Foleo. Do you get to keep it?

And now that it's dead, can you say what software you had planned for it? Anything for consumers, or just for business?

Huh? It was Linux. And even according to Beers, it was better than that crap Maemo Nokia shat out. (For an N800-kisser like him to admit that made an impression on me.)

Well, I better stop replying for now and get the hell to writing my blog stuff...

"They do not have the skill to customize a modern OS"

It doesn't set a new standard for others to match because IT'S NEVER GOING TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY!

The hypocrisy that others have spoken of is this - for the past few months, I had to hear bullshit about how the Foleo is going to be so useful and will be a great compliment to the Treo. Now that Palm axed it, the same people are saying it was a wise move.

Know what that means? It means you don't form your own damn opinion. You take whatever Palm says as fact. If they say you need a smartphone companion, then you suppose your Treo really is lonely. If they say they're canceling the device a mere weeks from release, then you claim it's a smart business idea.

Wake up. This is why you guys are on the ass-end of every joke on this site. A few of you are so far beyond "fanboy" that "cultist" couldn't even do you justice. Palm is a shitty company. The quicker you move onto other platforms, the quicker you realize how disgustingly limited the Palm OS really is. It may have been useful a few years ago, but it is completely outdated today.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

BTW, did you ever try a Bluetooth mouse with the Foleo?!

Didn't I read somewhere, maybe from Combee, that the Bluetooth was ONLY for syncing?

Er...maybe I'm thinking of this:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1312861&postcount=86

Know what that means? It means you don't form your own damn opinion. You take whatever Palm says as fact. If they say you need a smartphone companion, then you suppose your Treo really is lonely. If they say they're canceling the device a mere weeks from release, then you claim it's a smart business idea.

No no no, you big silly. Originally, most people assumed that the Foleo OS was what we were going to see on Palm's smartphones next year. Since we now know that is not the case, Palm's cancelling the Foleo makes sense. It's certainly disappointing - I was really looking forward to trying one out - but it would seem to be the right call.

Wake up. This is why you guys are on the ass-end of every joke on this site. A few of you are so far beyond "fanboy" that "cultist" couldn't even do you justice. Palm is a shitty company. The quicker you move onto other platforms, the quicker you realize how disgustingly limited the Palm OS really is. It may have been useful a few years ago, but it is completely outdated today.

1) You erroneously assume that I (or nice, rational people like Beersie) actually give - to quote the immortal Spider Jerusalem - two tugs of a dead dog's cock what random wankers on the Internet think of my opinion. (I don't.)

2) The real cult is the "Palm is dead" cult. Everyone blathers the same old tired garbage about how the Treo is rubbish, Palm OS sucks etc. How boring to read it everywhere you go...

WAITAMINUTE!

I still own two of those! (one an original "signed" 1000...whatta great computer (with amazingly bad marketing)).

Are we hypocrites, die-hard traditionalists or.......something akin to Amiga users?

You, sir, are some kind of freakish, bizarre hybrid*! You need to be hunted down and quarantined, so scientists can dissect you and find out what makes you tick.

*Or possibly a Jedi. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)

You haven't lived til you've tried to compile and run programs using Aztec C with nothing more than that internal and one external floppy drive. I think I managed a "Hello World" dialog box, maybe some sort of sound generator, that's about it before deep frustration set in. Got real good at swapping floppies, though!

> ...(did they ever release a ROM update card for the 1000 w/ the OS on it?)...

There WAS something, but the motherboard of the 1000 is, I believe, somewhat monolithic - unlike the expandable 2000.

And really REALLY bad marketing - the infamous Guru Meditation Error could not have been...well...worse. Nothing like those words in BLINKING red staring you in the face when something went wrong. Sheesh.

The Video Toaster lasted well past the Amigas, remaining viable for years.

Good stuff.

My guess is that Palm has roughly 6 months to come up with something competitive before Apple's iPhone/iPod touch finishes them off.

Typo. Should have been:

PALM mis-management has said

I repeat: Palm has SEX WEEKS.

No seasonality to phone sales? Wow, then Steve Jobs must have been seriously deluded when he mentioned people buying the iPhone as year-end gifts...

I'll take Steve Jobs word over yours. And over Ed "Let me publicly humiliate you, Hawkins" Colligan.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Ah, this might explain their turn to Linux:

-- http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/linuxlovingmen.shtml

Erm, did you read Colligan's post? (I know, I know, you don't make a habit of reading the stuff you comment on...) He specifically states that there will be a Foleo II and that it will be based on their new platform.

Here's what I really want to know: what's going to happen to the leftover Foleos that went out to developers? Is Palm just going to dump them in ladfill, ala` Atari 2600 E.T. cartridges? Why not sell one to me for half the price, Palm? :)

Foleo's Linux OS was born at a time when Palm's founders were returning to the helm of a Palm that had divested itself of its own OS supplier. They looked at the risk of an independent PalmSource, and at Palm OS Cobalt, which had huge built-in risks because it was proprietary *everything*, and when they finished saying "Holy crap, the crown jewels are floating around out in the street!" they decided three things.

First, they needed to hedge their OS bets by talking to Microsoft; second they should keep a sharp eye on any acquisition activity directed at PalmSource and be ready to defend against it; and third, they should have a backup plan in case they were unable to keep control of Palm OS, so they wouldn't be forced to go completely over to WinMo. Working on Foleo may have been a way for Palm to implement a back-up OS plan that would fold into product development whether or not Palm lost PalmSource and was stuck developing its own Linux smartphone OS. If PalmSource was acquired and it's Palm Linux became part of some other company's plans, they probably reasoned that the work and in-house expertise developing Foleo could become the basis of a new Palm-controlled smartphone OS.

That's probably how I would have figured it, too. But Palm didn't have the luxury of being dealt their best-case scenario, did they? First they failed to keep PalmSource from being acquired when ACCESS made a whopping bid that Palm couldn't in good conscience toward their shareholders match. Now Plan B had to become Plan A because Palm needed to keep control of their OS destiny if they were to differentiate and survive.

The next problem was, well... we don't know, exactly. But I have ideas.

I think we can surmise that when Palm made a big deal about bringing in Paul Mercer, a guy whose company was famous for architecting the iPod OS as well as that of some of Samsung's mobile device products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yepp) there was already some big change in the air. Mercer is the kind of guy you'd hire to lead a *new* OS project, not to join one mid-stream that had most of the big architectural issues settled. Palm has remained steady in saying their new smartphone platform will migrate Palm OS developers over to Linux, but I suspect now that the idea that a variant of the Foleo OS was what was needed to meet the needs of the new smartphone market had been rejected by the time Mercer joined the company. I've hinted about why this might be the case from looking at Palm's job postings and Mercer's public statements about mobile operating systems, which I think are in line with the way the wireless carriers look at mobile operating systems, and also with the rise of RIM in Palm's space.

Having used a Foleo for a short time, I can say that the Foleo team made some really important developments on Linux that I expect have already been shared back with smartphone OS team. Most people will probably never know how much they contributed, and as a fellow developer I feel bad for them about that.

I strongly suspect that the feedback that Palm received from their public beta was not the big reason for canceling Foleo 1.0, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I think the reasons Colligan just gave for holding off on Foleo until the new smartphone OS was complete were known to Palm when they hired Mercer early this year, but the Foleo was so close to release (and Palm so needed a new product) that for a time they convinced themselves they could support two new operating systems. Or maybe (heaven help them!) they thought they'd release the Foleo on an OS that they'd subsequently ditch in a year or two. If I'm right that Palm has known for several months that they were starting down a path that would force them to support two in-house Linux distros, then it was the decision to go down that path that was the big mistake. The hit should have been taken right then and there. Foleo should never have been announced in May and the Foleo team should have joined the smartphone developer team at the moment the new vision for the smartphone OS was settled.

Whether I'm right or wrong, it's a very sad day for Palm. Especially sad for Ben Combee and the Foleo team. They really did a great job on the Foleo OS.

For the developers reading this, ask yourself: if the email sync problems reported by Foleo beta testers only showed up after users sent and received hundreds of emails, what sort of problem does that sound like to you? Memory leak, right? Or maybe some kind of buffer overrun triggered by some weirdly configured "who-da thunk-it" email attachment? Fixable, certainly, but a common thing to crop up in C development. A reason to cancel a product release at the last minute? No way.

But supposed you had come to the conclusion that you needed to develop a platform that was not just open, but that would dramatically reduce the risk of those two kinds of bugs, which can live in third party applications, not just ones you control. What features would that platform need to have? (Automatic garbage collection. Strong typing. Having a compiler or runtime environment that checked the bounds of buffers instead of leaving this to the developer.) And what platform do you know that has these features? And what arch competitor of Palm has already made a transition to such a platform, and been extremely successful with it?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

But, your post here is 99.44% lame.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/feedback.asp

Or perhaps go and blog about it or something. Otherwise STFU 'cause I'm not going anywhere.

Love freakout

I don't reckon we'll see it again for another year at least - but he's right about it's raison d'etre: smartphones can do most everyday computing tasks, but sometimes you need the larger screen and keyboard. Full-blown laptops have several problems, but the main one is that they are compromised PCs rather than real mobile computers. The best PCs are ultra-capable do-anything machines and are bloated by necessity. The best mobile computers focus on fast access and simple interfaces.

Even if Palm don't have another tilt at it - which IMO is very unlikely - someone else will. The whole laptop category is long-overdue for some new ideas.

Indeed, PALM only has smartphones and handhelds as subcategories on the home page of their website now. Anyone check out palmthing yet to see how it's changed? (I have not)

> ...But the Wind River deal has fallen through leaving Palm with nowhere to go....

Say what!?

I would think the WindRiver deal is very much in place now and, besides the obvious about the Fooleo, was THE sign that the Fooleo was in deep doo-doo.

I've read nothing yet about the WindRiver deal going sour.

Working on Foleo may have been a way for Palm to implement a back-up OS plan that would fold into product development whether or not Palm lost PalmSource and was stuck developing its own Linux smartphone OS.

But that doesn't make sense on a few levels. The fundamental one was that if they were so worried about losing control of the OS, why did they spin it off in the first place? But more directly, in your best case scenario where PalmSource was not acquired they are now saddled with developing and maintaining a completely different OS and hardware platform. In Colligan's letter he doesn't say word one about taking this OS and using the bulk of it for a new smartphone OS, he says that the smartphone OS would be a separate platform. It doesn't seem like a hedge, just a bad idea.

Palm has remained steady in saying their new smartphone platform will migrate Palm OS developers over to Linux

Yes, they've remained steady for years with no sign of a linux based smartphone. They talk about it, but we never see it.

Something I read on another blog was that - if this was a planned cancelling, that is, if it was something that Colligan had been thinking of for awhile - how could they have just reaffirmed the ship date? If it was so close to happening, they should have just kept mum until a go/no-go decision was made.

I agree with you that it must be terrible for Ben, he was the one person that actually gave me any hope for the company at all.

But you close with your conclusion about the next platform. But, what about that wasn't needed and well known to be needed by Palm for the past several years? Palm has some serious problems and I suspect they all come from incompetence at the highest levels of management and it's not going to turn around until there's new leadership.

<http://comments.deasil.com/> that is my tech blog. There are many like it, but that one is mine.

So it comes down to: either they're lying or they're incompetent, with the possibility that some people are lying while others are stupid. Will Foleo II come? No matter how you look at it, Palm has lost all credibility. That should extend to their "most faithful" developers that developed apps for the Foleo, their internal development team, their hardware producers (read Taiwanese ODMs), their customers and their shareholders. At least, I know how I feel as a past customer and hobbyist developper: I'm not holding my breath for Foleo II and I'm looking elsewhere for my technology fix.

>On the other, we have jca666us: anonymous internet troll who thinks it's "retarded".

Don't trust me, obviously Ed Colligan agrees with me - otherwise Foleo would be on store shelves.

Just because Hawkins is a millionaire doesn't mean he's flawless - even Steve Jobs and Bill Gates make mistakes.

Calling Foleo his "best idea ever" reeks of the "Emperor's New Clothes".

Luckily he got called out on it before it was too late!

...if they were so worried about losing control of the OS, why did they spin it off in the first place?

In Colligan's letter he doesn't say word one about taking this OS and using the bulk of it for a new smartphone OS, he says that the smartphone OS would be a separate platform. It doesn't seem like a hedge, just a bad idea.

Yes, they've remained steady for years with no sign of a linux based smartphone. They talk about it, but we never see it.

Something I read on another blog was that - if this was a planned cancelling, that is, if it was something that Colligan had been thinking of for awhile - how could they have just reaffirmed the ship date?

But you close with your conclusion about the next platform. But, what about that wasn't needed and well known to be needed by Palm for the past several years? Palm has some serious problems and I suspect they all come from incompetence at the highest levels of management and it's not going to turn around until there's new leadership.

I don't credit anyone who says this announcement is because of some fatal flaw in the Foleo development team's work, which looks very good to me. Still less do I credit the idea that Colligan would talk about a Foleo II if was wasn't DAMN sure that Palm would be releasing one when the unified OS is ready. As I said before, he might be able to survive canceling the Foleo once, but not canceling it twice.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Your complete lack of English comprehension skills isn't my problem, Mike. Perhaps you need an elementary school refresher course? Or maybe just one in manners. I'd say "I'm sure you've heard of them" - but I'm not.

I wonder if the cancellation of handheld java was the direct result of a spat between Sun and Palm?

IIIc -> M105 -> Zire 21 -> Tungsten T2 -> Treo 650

phone not pfone

Att Palm:
Foleo = Smartphone companion
T|X = Dumbphone companion
If you think a Foleo will sell and a PDA wont you're out of your mind.
SunGod aka Luigi(AusPUG)

You know...like farming out all Windows and Linux work and dropping PalmOS entirely (just keeping whatever "look and feel" someone thinks they should keep - frankly, I don't see the need for THAT either - this is not 1990 or whenever THAT look and was born).

WAITAMINUTE!

That's EXACTLY what they're doing!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/04/the-fun-never-ends-another-dell-up-in-flames/

Seriously 6.9 lbs? My former PowerBook was 5.9 lbs, in 1999... And looked a a lot better. And with the OS' less bloated back then (SUSE-Linux & Mac OS 8.6), it propably ran a lot faster too.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g3/stats/powerbook_g3_400.html

Replacing the battery would cost (as I remember) about $200.

Try $19.99 and a little of your time.
http://tinyurl.com/2bxx2l

This one even comes with a plug; no soldering required.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

p.s. cheerleading yes-men and apologists like yourself just cost palm shareholders $10,000,000 for this failed pig. if palm would occasionally listen to the frank, common-sense devils-advocate comments like those here at PIC perhaps shareholders would be better off.

I take full credit. :-)

For what it's worth, looks like the Street has a pretty good outpouring of good will as well, not just us boot-licking sycophantic yes-men: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PALM&t=5d

Time will tell, but so far it looks like shareholders are OK with the decision. (Not that they have the faintest clue what it really means.)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

if palm would occasionally listen to the frank, common-sense devils-advocate comments like those here at PIC perhaps shareholders would be better off.

So, what is our *current* advice to Palm?

They'd gain a HUGE amount of goodwill *just* for releasing the oh-so-long-awaited 320x480 Treo with no keyboard and wireless. That would be the upgrade that Tungsten owners have gotten tired of waiting for. Better late than never, right?

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

Comments

I'm sad for the delay in the Foleo product, but as a developer very pleased that I and other Palm developers will be able to target applications to a single, unified platform shared by Palm's smartphones and smartphone companions. I was impressed when I first got to try a Foleo how far the Foleo team had gone in achieving Palm's "Zen," so I can only think that the new OS will be delivering on that as well.

Glad for the renewed focus from you guys. You've got some great hardware in the Foleo, and the opportunity to have the same apps run across both Foleo and Palm smartphones is very exciting.

Posted by: David Beers | September 04, 2007 at 02:13 PM

http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/09/a-message-to-pa.html

I meant what I said. And if Colligan does put me on his Christmas list I'd be happy to return the courtesy. I'll help him in his job search. :-P

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

At this point, Palm will probably take what they can get. ;)

There was MUCH more than $10,000,000 lost by this one - that is the INCREMENTAL cost of shutting the project down.

Either they haven't gotten around to it, or they *aren't* posting all the comments. Mine hasn't shown up yet, and it was relatively tame.

For the record, all I said was that I don't want a smartphone.

Ed Colligan is talking about focussing on smartphones, which make no sense to people who only want PDAs, no sense to people who want BT DUN to connect a PDA to a dumbphone and no sense to people who have had a cellphone plan outside of North America (the economics don't make sense here).
Not to mention, Palm is pinning their future on their acceptance by mobile carriers.

That's a long way of saying that Palm *doesn't* listen. They don't want to hear from people who want to own PDAs. It's funny that HP is putting out PDAs and Apple is putting out iPods that work just like PDAs (in the sense that they include PIM and web access).

If any of you planned to give a Palm PDA as an Xmas gift (to someone who you must apparently HATE!), buy it NOW.

Perhaps.

The CFO made some noise not that long ago that =I= thought suggested there was still a possibility, though (see the PiC post or three that has "Brown" in it written by me).

I easily could envision a Linux PDA with bluetooth connected to a not-all-THAT-smart phone when it needs to get further away than "local".

WAITAMINUTE!

I =did= envision that four and a half years ago!

== "...So what I want is a large screen PDA with keyboard
== and tapscreen with a DETACHABLE Piggyback phone with a
== dinky screen and standard numeric buttons, etc. Maybe
== talking to each other via Bluetooth or whatever..."

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=219661&postcount=1

and

== "...Anyway - it looks to THIS reader like PalmOne is for
== SURE heading to what I mentioned with their redefinition of
== "converged device" to allow multiple communicating devices (!!!).
== As such, perhaps that "device" mentioned up there will be
== Coming Soon! (albeit maybe not so converged that it's piggybacked...)"

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=338530&postcount=9

Giggle.

(luv bringing that one up over and over, eh?)

As noted in another earlier post, I think it is quite possible Colligan has become past tense w.r.t. PALM and "took the hit" of cancelling the Fooleo as a last datapoint.

I expect to see news of this soon - maybe on the 12th?

[I can't think of a good reason to cancel his automated stock option exercising UNLESS he has no need to continue to do so]

HP is not stupid, they saw Palm arrogantly ignored an amazing market grab opportunity when HP released a bunch of crappy PDAs a few years ago and Dell gave up last year.
HP is now coming back, for a cleansweep of the PDA market.

I strongly believe that the PDA market is large, it is a core market and it is destined for constant growth.

Why can't Palm see this?
Don't they read boards and constantly see comments from people who love slim TX like devices?
PDAs will all have wireless connectivity, we all agree, but the whole argument here is over
- if carriers should brand and control the device
- if the device has to be phone-centric
- form factors that offer larger, better screens, and that still fit in pockets
- very slim form factors
- versions with and without keyboards
- etc

The concept of a "PC in your pocket" is NEVER going to go away. It is up to Palm to release a multitude of device lines that answer most persons needs. Treos are great, but there are other needs out there also.

Palm is a mobile PDA company. They should stick to what they did best i.e., make PDAs, smartphones and an awesome OS that helps people stay organized and occasionally entertained.

The Foleo was a noble effort, but the market isnt ready for it due to laptops and technology overload (which Colligan ironically admitted himself).

I use my Treo and TX daily. They serve to complete and backup one another. I and many others have money to spend towards upgrading either device. Palm has to MAKE A NEW FRICKEN HANDHELD!... how many times I and a gazillion other people have to repeat ourselves before someone listens?

Anyways.. whatever. Palm will do what Palm wants to do. Just remember, we the consumers have the $$.

I thought that was the foleo's job?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

At the same time I am still using my HTC Universal, mainly due to the amazingly good keyboard and 3G support (the Touch does not have this). I keep copious notes every day, and I need a way to easily record this. I also use my phone as my laptop modem, so 3G is essential.
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=148

I have seen and handled the Advantage, but its just too big for me (and I dont mind big phones in general). Also a mechanical hard drive in this day and age seems backward.

I am waiting for the HTC Omni, due later this year (supposedly October, but one knows how these schedules slip). It is the same size of my HTC Universal, but a 1/3 thinner at 16mm (thinner than the Centro). It has a larger 4 inch 800x480 screen (the Universal and Advantage are both VGA), HSDPA, WIFI, GPS, 3 megapixel autofocus camera and VGA Out. It will probably also have the TouchFlo screen as found on the Touch, and appears to have a Pearl-like trackball. The main feature is of course the full 5 row keyboard with number keys also. Its also has the Universal's twist and flip screen, turning it into a tablet device.
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=790

When I get this I can finally retire my 19 month old Universal. Its the longest I have ever had a PDA or phone, which just shows how unique a device it was (despite being a horribly unreliable phone).

HTC just announced they will be releasing 10 devices with 3G chipsets by Qualcom THIS year, and that they will be increasing their already torrential pace of device development (The Touch II has already been announced in Japan). If there is one problem HTC does not have, unlike Palm, its delivery.
http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/handhelds/0,39001709,62031835,00.htm

It has occurred to me that the Foleo was Palm's Segway. A device that was thought to be revolutionary by its creators, mainly because it was developed in intense secrecy. Once exposed to the harsh light of public scrutiny the fact the solution (and especially the cost of it) was out of proportion to the severity of the problem, and that therefore the market was extremely small. The only difference is that Palm finally decided to listen (probably due to the influx of new management) whereas Karmen is still waiting for cities to be re-engineered around his creation.

Surur

http://tinyurl.com/3crpya

Didn't some...you know...High Uppity Up from PALM go to HPQ to head up their...you know...mobile devices (among other things) group?

-- http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/bios/bradley.html

I have to tell you that I'll be giving that iPaq 200 a serious look as a portable blogging machine. I'd rather have the iPhone for that -- and who knows, maybe next month's Leopard unveil will bring along a One More Thing of an iPhone/iPod SDK. Just let me pair a frikkin Bluetooth keyboard with an iPhone and I'm there!

Which is another reason why I said above Palm has just SIX WEEKS to save its ass.

this was a super cool product that deserved a chance

Hawkins deserved a chance!
Mr. Hawkins, if you are reading, F them, F Colligan, go start your own company and sell the Foleo EVEN THOUGH IT DOESNT PLAY YOUTUBE- WOOPY DOO!

>>>We hadn't gone into full production of the device yet pending the final build of the software, so while we had a fairly large number of units produced for internal testing and development, we don't have to get rid of a lot of hardware. I expect the already-built devices will continue to be used by their owners. By not releasing the device, we greatly reduce marketing and support costs, and we avoid ongoing manufacturing costs.

>>>And yes, the Foleo version of Linux was quite a bit different from the version we're using for future smartphones. Different hardware, different customer requirements, different form factor. However, a lot of the expertise that the Foleo team developed in working on the kernel, building drivers, creating test systems, and producing embedded middleware should be reusable on our smartphone systems.

When did I deny Linux on smartphones?

WHY would I deny Linux on smartphones?

Are you nuts!?

Oh.

Nevermind.

Huh?

When did I deny Linux on smartphones?

WHY would I deny Linux on smartphones?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135128
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135139
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8936/#135145

I guess you get a pass this time, but if you like I can keep you on the "stupid" list of people who thinks Palm is not going to have any backward compatibility with Palm OS in its new platform. ;-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

#1. Palm Centro CDMA. Palm OS 5.4.9. EVDO Rev. 0, 64mb RAM, less DBHeap/Cache than the 680/755p/700p. 1.3mp camera, tiny 320x320 LCD. Non-replacable 1200mAh or possibly 1600mAh battery. 2.5mm headset port. microSDHC slot. BT 1.2 w/o A2DP. $99.99 w/ contract. Sprint exclusive at launch & will never appear on Verizon.

#2 Palm Centro GSM. Palm OS 5.4.9. Same specs as above but with EDGE. Same price w/ contract or $299 unlocked. This could end up being the sleeper "hit" of the Centro line, especially if Palm discontinues the 680 soon as I expect them to and starts aggressively discounting the unlocked Centro's price.

#3 Palm Centro GSM. Windows Mobile Standard. No touchscreen. 320x240 LCD. Slightly wider body (think Moto Q style) and possibly larger keyboard. 1200mAh battery. $99.99 w/ contract or $300 unlocked.

#4 I would not be surprised to see Palm start selling the Treo 750 pre-loaded with WM6. They might change up the color offerings, cut the price a few bucks and maybe even starting packing in a slightly higher-capacity battery and call it the "750 Special Edition" or "750 SE" or "750x" or something.

#5 Z22 drops to $75-$80 permanently, E2 to $150, TX to $250.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Yes, that is my belief as well.

[and I think PALM would be making an a-MAZ-ing mistake to try to develop a PalmOS emulation layer or something equally too-complex-for-their-lousy-developers. What a waste of resources THAT would be! Then again, PALM has a fairly robust history of mistakes, so....]

Others also have expressed ...uh...an opinion about this:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1341166&postcount=90

Giggle.

I'm at the point where I tend to agree on canning all backwards compatibility as well.

What, is there something terribly compelling about Palm's hardware?!! My T2 and TX were both barely passable from a hardware standpoint.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

But "you", for quite a few and probably significantly GROWING set of "you", are already out of here. That set of "you" =are= going with the Mots and Noks and Apples ALREADY.

And NEW "you"s aren't coming in.

That, in a nutshell, IS PALM's problem.

That is to say, PALM gains little to nothing (of course IMHO) if they stick with some form of backward compatability. They've ALREADY thrown it away with their WinMob devices and their now-dead Fooleo; keeping it around for their NEW platform is simply a silly nostalgic thought. And an a-MAZ-ing waste of their meager development capabilities.

If there is something particularly desireable w.r.t. INTERFACE or something equally ill-defined, fine, keep it in some form.

But dump the backward compatability.

Sorry.

I do not respect "Beers"' opinion, admittedly. He's an inexperienced pumper who modifies his stance as his stance is shown to be wrong.

We've been over the "inexperienced" and "pumper" allegations, but thanks for giving everyone another example of that fact-impervious stance of yours right in the same post. Very thoughtful! :-)

To the topic under discussion, backward compatibility and an all-new, powerful operating system are not either/or propositions, as ALP and OS X have demonstrated. So even if you didn't agree that Palm should try to hold onto its current user base for some reason, deciding to ditch the Garnet compatibility layer wouldn't give Palm any extra ability to attract new users. If a new Palm user never installed a Garnet application they'd never know or care that that layer was there, and the layer wouldn't affect the look-and-feel or what could be done by applications that are built against the new APIs.

There's only one reason I can think of that Palm would ditch Garnet compatibility: if several of the carriers came to them and said they had to. Fortunately for Palm OS users, the carriers are even more worried about churn than Palm is, so the likelihood of one of them would break rank on this and send high-margin customers into the arms of a competitor seems small to me. Even if Garnet was regarded as a support liability, they know very well that there wouldn't be a large number of users installing the old applications and that the ones who did would tend to be the savvier users. Far from asking Palm to get rid of Garnet compatibility, they'd more likely make compatibility a requirement. Have we forgotten about who the customer is for a new OS and who makes many of the requirements for it?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Just keep it the hell away from me!

Oh, I can't resist: Giggle.

Nonsense.

Those are PAST customers.

1000-PDA?

Or maybe 50-PDA?

Yeah, PALM for SURE should expend the resources to address THEIR concerns alrightee!

Oh, you mean those 200-PDA customers?

And I'm just one developer among thousands of others.

Why don't you talk about something you know something about, for once, SV?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Or do they plan to buy a ton of E2's & TX's soon and hope their legacy apps run on OS 5.4.9? Or do they try to (expensively) deploy Treos for future needs?

Have they looked to niche providers such as Janam? I SHUDDER to think at how folks working in the "field" would fare with anything running Palm OS that's not ruggedized. I have a hard enough time nursing my Treos & Palm PDAs through the rigors of (very delicate) daily use and the occasional drop!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

let's just play pretend for a moment and say Palm announced new PDAs tomorrow. Nothing fancy, just improved versions of the current Garnet line.

Would you anticipate "good things" for Pikesoft business as a result of replacement devices definitely being available for the next few years (at least for some of your clients)? Or do you suspect that most of them are looking to eventually replace their custom POS-based solutions with something else due to the uncertainty and age of the platform?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

twrock:
I was being yanked around by Palm AsiaPacific's incredibly horrendous warranty/repair system. I had little choice unless I just wanted to give up.

Palm Asia-Pacific were actually a helluva lot more helpful to me than Palm US. When my 680's headphone jack crapped out on me barely a month after I'd bought it, Palm US were totally useless. Essentially they said "We're not ready to repair 680s yet. Come back later." (I'd bought my 680 via the States so I could get the red one, not to mention a much better price.) So, I rang Palm Australia instead. They had a courier at my door to pick it up the very next day, sent it back to the States and three weeks later I had my replacement. Friendly and professional every step of the way.

So the lesson is: buy from the US, repair via AsiaPacific. ;)

Suddenly, Palm Treo sales drop to -- oh -- about ZERO!

And that Centro? Bueller? Bueller?

At this point, to me anyway, it looks like Palm killed the ONE thing they actually had a POSSIBILITY of selling: FOLEO.

I mean, really, do ANY of you expect Palm to come up with something to be the 1-2 punch of iPhone-iTunes? Even if they did an exact frikkin iPhone clone, they have NO iTunes Store.

And the Foleo had WHAT FRACTION of a gig storage?! For WHAT price again?!

Oh yeah -- $599 with a go-scratch-your-ass-for-it-ever-showing-up $100 rebate.

This is so sad.

For Palm, that is.

For Apple, YIPPEE!

Same para:

>>>I ONLY buy physical CDs and rip them at my preferred bitrate/format.

Huh? I think you mean you refuse to buy thing that CAN'T be purchased as CDs. Well, here's sad news. Jobs reported today that ONE-THIRD of all music published is now "ethereal" -- never put on CD! Believe me, I don't like hearing that, either. I tend to rip above 128K myself.

>>>P.S. Why doe Apple have such an aversion to memory card slots and built-in FM tuners? An SDHC slot (or even a mini or micro) would make an iPod any SDHC-sporting digital camera user's best friend. I mean, I'm sure they figure any kind of memory expanion via flash cards would seriously cut into the sales of upgraded models but still...

You forget the environment Apple had to work in to get where it is today. They had to absolutely insure record labels that piracy with the iPod would be hard as hell. Thus, you cannot plug an iPod into a friend's PC and upload your library. Thus, no storage slots for dropping music onto to easily share. Look at the crap they're taking from NBC, with NBC wanting even *more* DRM.

As for playing MPEGs on an iPod, forget that, son. It's MP4 H.264 only. Go download Handbrake (I think it's bisexual -- PC *and* Mac) to convert, convert, convert.

While Palm is foundering with Foleo, Apple is releasing new products at aggressive price points.

What's the comparable Treo you can get for the $399 the 8 gig. iphone now costs?

Centro anyone?

Now, can someone point me in the right direction on how to use the an iPod without ever having to touch iTunes? RockBox? Elphpod? I want a UMS-style portable hard drive that plays MP3s & MPEGs without any kind of DRM/check-in, check-out/proprietary drivers etc.

I don't care a HOOT about iTunes etc and (other than PDA software and Steam games on my PC), I refuse to buy anything that can be purchased on physical media. Save for a handful of live gig type mp3's I've downloaded, I ONLY buy physical CDs and rip them at my preferred bitrate/format.

There was a rumor published here on PIC to expect a Linux-based phone from Palm next month.

What can we really expect other than something with lots of buttons?

Oh, and that Small Square Screen.

Palm has one shot at getting this right. Just one. The need to batten down the hatches and totally focus on the new platform. If it isn't *Unbelievably Excellent* (tm) Palm will not survive. Period.

The $299 8GB iPod Touch kills every PDA that was ever built to date. Cold. The iPhone is everything the Treo wanted to be in 2009.

(Incidentally, Palm should seriously consider going back to the glass digitizers as well; I would recommend it.)

"The iPhone is everything [I wanted] the Treo ... to be in [2006]." Except that I wanted to be able to really run third-party apps instead of having to work within the confines of what Uncle Steve thinks I should be using. (Yeah, this Apple thing does look a little "cultish" sometimes.)

This is the second time in a year that Apple has come along and offered a product that is so very close to what we were asking for that it is almost ironic. What, is Apple reading PIC (and other Palm sites) and actually listening, but Palm can't be bothered? Palm, what is your problem already?

Just so that you don't have to go back and look it up, the people around here have been asking for:
1. Updated PDA's (maybe only two?) with great multimedia capability (Apple just did it, so don't go telling us there isn't a market)
2. PDA-centric smartphone; in other words an iPhone with Palm OS (HTC is already making the WinMob versions, so don't bother)
3. Smartphones with Wifi
4. Yes, don't kill your Treo design; it's good, but it's not the "only thing", although working to get it thinner would be a great goal
5. At least consider something as different as a clamshell smartphone
6. Extremely easy to use desktop software to take care of media synchronization
7. And stop scrimping on the hardware specs!!!! Less memory, no mic, no vibrating alarm, no LED in the TX is a good example of what not to do. You can cut all that stuff out of your Zire or TE2, but not the top of the line stuff. We all know that adding those features (honestly, "not removing" would be more accurate) would have raised the device cost only a tiny fraction. Penny wise and pound foolish. Stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

Hmm, did I miss anything?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Yeah, like he said!

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796

Giggle.

[I know, I know, I'm a broken record...for like almost 5 years now!]

I feel like I'm witnessing the slow public death of Palm. Watching what Apple is doing with the iPod touch and the iPhone makes my 680 seem very lame, slow, etc. I still like a keyboard, but I stopped by an Apple store a few miles away and played with the virtual keyboard for awhile and it was better than I thought. With the price dropping $200 on the 8Gb phone - I'm already with ATT... it almost becomes a no-brainer. If I wait another six months the iphone will be up to 16gb and have better Exchange connections. I helped set up 20+ iPhones for one of my clients and it worked pretty well, as is, with the Exchange server.

I see the 'headlines' here at PIC about weather applications and other pretty lame software applications and I feel like I'm going back in time. Not a bad thing for someone my age, but even at my advanced years I'd rather look forward to a sleek device with wifi and a browser other than freaking Blazer.... GZ

And how does iTunes handle importing Palm Contacts fields? And Palm Datebook/Calendar entries?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Anyone know if the Touch has a calculator?

Yes. From the pic here: http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/ipod-touch-gets-official/
the iPod touch will have: Safari web browser, you tube app, Calendar, contacts, clock, calculator, iPod, photo gallery, itunes online store.

It's unclear to me if it will have a camera, and it's sort of notably missing google maps as well, but other than that, it's like an iphone without a phone.

And how does iTunes handle importing Palm Contacts fields? And Palm Datebook/Calendar entries?

iTunes doesn't. iTunes syncs with iCal on Mac, and Outlook 2003 or 2007 or Yahoo Addressbook on Windows. That's it. Oh, how I hope a future version of iTunes at least syncs with Google Calendar.

In the meantime, check this out:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/addressbook/autosync/

Yahoo adressbook autosync will allow you to do a sync from palm desktop or outlook to yahoo calendar. That at least provides a simple mechanism for moving your data our of Palm desktop to Outlook or online to Yahoo desktop.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

If it all wasn't so hilarious it would be assinine.

I went out recently and bought a new iMac put VM Fusion on it to run Windows, if it weren't for Apple we'd be stuck with Windows and Palm, They/Apple are the only useful innovators that actually produce revolutionary leaps in design and functionality. Apple is a cult, but I'm thinking about joining. GZ

Based on what I read around, I doubt there is anything really reusable from the Fooleo project. What Combee mentioned is mostly spinning, no tangible stuff. The Fooleo was a waste of time and money, things that obviously abound at palm.

--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

Now give.

I know nothing about coding except everything seems to take frikkin man-months.

And has Palm been using The Dilbert Method?

http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2814760070903.gif

Let me put it in general terms so it will drill down:

Hardware has gotten powerful enough that XP can now be run on palmtops. But MS finally gets wise and decides that XP needs a different UI for palmtops (it does!).

Now, XP is all finished, done, as an OS. It just needs that new palmtop-friendly makeup.

Now how long does a project like THAT take?

Do you get it now?

And yes, it has begun to sink in to *my* brain the features Hawkins (or whoever) designed into the Foleo. I still think the single browser window, single D2G document open is crap, however. Unrealistic and constraining. But so was the built-in memory, which was the first mistake.

You sound like one of my product managers right now, which is annoying me, ok? :-)

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

HTC Shift, IPod ITouch, those are the devices to watch.

~Eric

Speaking of Palm itself job posting, however, THIS one:

-- http://recruit.trovix.com/jobhost/jobhost/ViewJobPostDetails.do?jobPostId=615351&action=viewDetails

looks like a fun job.

The low-level of experience required is scary, IMHO, but the job itself has a cool description.