Centro 2 Running WebOS in the Works?
Rumor: Just days after Palm announced the exciting Pre phone with a drastically new formfactor, rumors have already begun to surface regarding the next device destined to run Palm's new WebOS.
I heard from a seemingly reliable firsthand source that Palm is prepping a new Centro 2 to debut later this fall on Sprint. It will supposedly be around the same size as the current Centro and will be powered by the Palm WebOS.
Adding further substance to the rumor is a PCMag article addressing the top fifteen questions surrounding Palm's new platform. According to them, the device will omit the QWERTY keyboard in order to maximize the available screen real estate necessary for the various icons and cards that form the basis of WebOS.
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RE: no Linux access
(Of course, Palm may get into legal trouble over this; the Linux license requires them to make the source code for the kernel available.)
RE: no Linux access
They will surely provide source code for the kernel. What they are not required to do is to provide the means to replace that kernel for another; this means they can design hardware that runs only a linuk kernel that is signed by them, so removing the restrictions that it imposes should be difficult.
The lingo for this is "Tivoization" because Tivo were the first to discover they could lock their flavor of linux onto their machines, thus getting Linux for free without having to yield control on what their users could run.
Rivers of bad blood have run on this subject, and it is the main reason why the GPL license Version 3 was designed. But Linux is GPL V2, and intended to remain so.
Sooner or later the protection will be broken, and you will be able to load a custom linux distribution, but the point is, that does not really matter, because it will be a marginal activity, apps will not integrate with webOS proper, and all of webOS (do I really have to say that?) apps will be jailed with Palm's restrictions.
Still, not everything has been said yet about huevos, and I would not be surprised in the slightest if there were bindings for languages other than Javascript; in fact, I would if there weren't, because there MUST be some intelligent people at Palm that just know their next shot in the foot would be the final.
RE: no Linux access
8.) Will the Pre run Palm OS apps?
Not initially, but a third party could write a Palm OS emulator.
That surely indicates that there must be some lower-level access available, or will be.
RE: no Linux access
People don't have to replace the kernel in order to put applications on top of it. The fact that they have to publish the kernel source means that the ABI and device interfaces are open.
Theoretically, Palm could try to design the hardware and software such that it is impossible to load binaries on top of it. Almost nobody has succeeded in doing that yet, and I doubt Palm has the discipline to achieve that.
RE: no Linux access
-------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?
RE: no Linux access
Coming from a software development company, I can vouch that finding a balance between protecting stability and providing open access for developers is a delicate dance, and I don't blame them one bit for erroring on the side of stability in the beginning.
- Jeff
Tungsten T -> Palm TX -> TX & Centro (Good combo so far!)
RE: no Linux access
It's not an assumption, it's Palm's corporate position.
"Coming from a software development company, I can vouch that finding a balance between protecting stability and providing open access for developers is a delicate dance,"
Of course it is. That doesn't make it any less serious of an omission. Not providing native access is akin to releasing the device without 3G capabilities, or with a 240x320 screen, or with some other serious limitation.
RE: no Linux access
Theoretically, Palm could try to design the hardware and software such that it is impossible to load binaries on top of it. Almost nobody has succeeded in doing that yet, and I doubt Palm has the discipline to achieve that."""
You can show all the world how your kernel only loads signed binaries and that won't do you much good if you don't have the appropriate keys.
As for nobody succeeding, it does not really matter. It might be satisfying to jailbreak your phone and installing one of the three available Forbidden Apps, but 99.99999% of the users will be out of that market, which will keep it sadly unsupplied, which will keep 99.99999% of the users out of it.
And I agree with others here, low-level access will surely be coming, when it's done. Tiered or not, I don't know.
RE: no Linux access
And that pretty much sums up my point: Palm can't really keep low level apps or malware off the platform, but by not actively supporting this from the start, they are greatly limiting the platform. And we're not talking about a restriction that exists right now, we are talking about a restriction that apparently will exist at launch time, six+ months from now.
This rumor doesn't sound credible...
That's obvious and complete nonsense. Any device Palm puts out has to have either Graffiti or a keyboard. There isn't any other option. Since it appears Graffiti is dead, I've got to call B.S. on any claim that a keyboardless WebOS phone will come out.
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
In all honesty, I could see physical QWERTY keyboard-less Centro2 working better with WebOS than a 320x320 tiny screen Centro2 with a keyboard.
WebOS basically needs a good deal of screen real estate and seems highly optimized for "tall" portrait displays.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
If Palm offers a slideout physical keyboard then there's no reason they couldn't (and shouldn't?) offer a front-facing physical keyboard (think 'i-mate 8502'). Personally I'd find that form factor very appealing, and even more given that webOS starts a device + web search as soon as you type something on the keyboard, so I would want to have that keyboard available at all times.
I'd say go for it.
Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect) -> Nokia E51 (un/impressive) -> Touch Enhanced (nice!) -> Samsung 780 (mousepad woes)
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
I could see this, except for the fact that Palm spent a good deal of energy dismissing virtual keyboards when they announced the Pre. That would strongly suggest that they're not going to follow up on this model with one with a virtual keyboard. That would almost certainly come back to bite them, wouldn't it?
What I see happening instead is them releasing a Centro-sized device without the hard buttons, with the (capacitive) screen flush with the device, with a keyboard. If you take out the hard buttons and put the gesture area there (or maybe put part of the screen and the gesture area there) you could end up with a good, Pre-like device.
The reason I think Graffiti is dead is because they haven't included it in recent models. You don't get Graffiti on the Centro, for instance, without Jot installed. I also think that the abandonment of the resistive screen bodes ill for Graffiti. It's possible, but a good deal more difficult, to use Graffiti with your finger. And finally, there's the fact that WebOS is gesture-based. How are those gestures going to live together comfortably with Graffiti? As it was, Graffiti2 was more difficult because certain characters would be mistaken for other characters/movements. (Think about the Graffiti2 "X", for example.)
I just don't see a virtual keyboard in the cards, and I think Graffiti isn't practical in the new direction Palm is going...
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
This is why the rumor does not sound credible. Since when has Palm cared about the greatest lost opportunity in Palm design history. Gosh, just the thot that rumors are being tossed around like this makes me want to pinch myself. Therefore it must be a dream. Wow.
I for one could live with a VK on a screen optimized device. A Centro FF could work, but I'm actually hoping for a larger device filling a Treo like frontal area with display. Or my dream is a T3,T5,TX (credit card) sized screen in a device only fractionally larger than the screen itself.
Ahhh well, since were dreamin' ...
http://tinyurl.com/87ph5a
Pat Horne
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
I don't see the problem as a screen real estate one. The Pre certainly seems to take advantage of available surface area for screen real estate, and I think that a virtual keyboad would have the advantage of being able to slide out of the way when not in use. From a design point of view, the problem I see is that the keyboad would have to be too small to fit on anything Centro-sized. Pushing physical buttons is a very different experience from using a touchscreen, because the buttons are flat and your thumbs hit the screen flatly. Cento-sized keys in a virtual keboard would be too small, and how are you going to fit lager virtual keys on something Centro-sized?
Now, they could surprise us, and go with a larger form factor, but I'm doubting that right now. They seem to have settled on this one. Hell, the Pre screen is large compared to the Centro screen, and comparable in size to the iPhone, so I don't see them going much larger. The much-hoped-for TX with a cell radio is a pipe dream.
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
Not on the Pre. They actually did quite well there. It's the other 693 designs that they have released since the pilot. All most all waste 50%+ of the device frontal space forcing the user to do business in 50% or less of the remaining space.
if they
The Pre is encouraging, and a candybar Centro with HVGA and VK would work too. Actually the same FF of the Centro could remain with the HVGA if they would get efficient with the wasted space and oversized app keys. Check this crude example @ only about 10% longer. Pretty easy it would seem.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/CentroHVGA.jpg
Pat Horne
RE: This rumor doesn't sound credible...
any "Centro 2" with WebOS will be a Centro in NAME ONLY.
now stop being silly!!!!!!!!
Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Many of the Foleo concepts appear to have turned up in webOS - the idea of "no saving" of your data, or the smart syncing that keeps your stuff the same across all your devices. And the core concept is still solid - sometimes, you just need a full-size keyboard and a big screen in order to get real work done, without all the overhead of a desktop OS.
Foleo with a gesture area below the keyboard, maybe?
Or a webOS tablet?
I think Palm will hold off on more webOS smartphones until the Pre is firmly established - let's say at least a year on the market. In the meantime, they've still got Garnet Centros and WinMob devices like the Pro to keep up variety in their smartphone lineup.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Device like this needs to be the size of the MB Air.
Pat Horne
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
http://www.palm.com/us/company/management-team/brown-andrew.html
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
i'm pretty sure that's a Dell Latitude, silly. i have the same one.
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Colligan has a Dell PC sitting on his desk, silly. and there was nobody on the grassy knoll either.
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Yes, netbooks are big, but again you've got the essential problem of how do you compete with devices running desktop Windows or Linux? It's not really going to be much cheaper than, say, an Aspire, and you'll be limited to what, web apps and whatever Palm lets happen in third party development? On a netbook? No way. It would get absolutely slaughtered in the marketplace.
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Tungsten T -> Palm TX -> TX & Centro (Good combo so far!)
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
By doing more with less. There's a favourite quote of mine I liked to bandy about when Foleo was first introduced from a Linux developer who basically made the observation that despite hardware getting more powerful all the time, desktop computer performance is still sluggish because of the constant layers of features that desktop OS's keep adding.
With an OS that's designed with mobility in mind - and presuming an eventual native SDK that uses C, like the Foleo had - there's real potential for Palm to redefine how you interact with mobile computers. Ideas like "you never have to save", constant sync and instant-on are things that neither Windows nor OS X offer and probably won't for awhile yet.
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
Apple does it. iPod Air/iPod Touchbook in Fall.
(Oh shut up, lefty. ACCESS is FAIL. Give it up!)
ALP hardware from Sony!
Nope.
This Sony has a 3,5" touchscreen with six times bigger resolution than 320x480, 802.11g, 4 Gb internal memory and a MemoryStick slot, 10 megapixel camera with 4x optical zoom & optical image stabilization. Too bad it isn't a smartphone or a PDA.
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/online/news/sony_dsc_g3_camera_has_wi_fi_and_linux
RE: Betting a Foleo-2 will be the next webOS device
So now ACCESS is in the CAMERA biz, eh lefty? And yet he doesn't come here to gloat about SONY!
Honestly, it might just be the normal Centro hardware guys...
I'd be willing to bet my retirement that we won't see them get rid of the querty keyboard on the Centro... That goes against EVERYTHING said in the PRE release, and Palm's exec team for the past three years. Maybe they might slim down the hard buttons and nav pad in favor of a non-square screen, but that's a big maybe.
- Jeff
Tungsten T -> Palm TX -> TX & Centro (Good combo so far!)
RE: Honestly, it might just be the normal Centro hardware guys...
Now, that said, the Pre's single front clicker button is pretty small. I'm thinking that Jeff's hit the nail on the head if there's any truth to this rumor. It would not be hard to remove the Centro's entire hard button/d-pad area to make room for slightly larger LCD and a small gesture area + button. The gesture area is more reliant on sideways motions than any major vertical motions.
Or they could keep the same basic Centro size but make it slightly taller to accomodate a small 320x480 LCD.
P.S.
Another question I asked of the Palm reps and they confirmed: WebOS WILL have scalable system font sizes. Though they didn't understand what I was saying when I asked about "anti-aliasing" or "Font smoothing such as ClearType". But I'm glad to see that all text looked very nice, with no apparent jaggies or anything like RIM's horrid skinny fonts. Everything on WebOS looked approporiate for the scren size/res, much like iPhone. Aesthetically & legibility-wise, onscren text seemed an enormous step above anything by RIM or Microsoft mobile platforms. Icon-wise, though, I'd like to have seen more use of color to alert the user to "hot" areas onscreen that can trigger actions. There was a lot of dark grey/light grey/black areas or onscreen buttons whose function didn't clearly jump right out at me (the calendar app & photo app stood out for this in particular) but being extremely familar with the Palm OS I assume that Palm has just gussied up existing PIM app functions so it won't be too hard for any of us. It might be a good idea to brng the "tap counter" back into the fold at Palm, as I do worry that some functions that can be quickly executed under Garnet via 1 or 2 hard/soft button taps may take more taps, strokes, jabs and swipes under WebOS.
P.P.S.
So my initial WebOS impressions in a nutshell after having a few nights to sleep on it:
Less clutter & less imtimidation for n00bies? Yes.
More efficiency for longtime Palm OS power users trying to multitask (look up someone's addresss while composing an email to someone else, for example)? Yes.
More speed and efficiency for longtime Palm OS users needing to very quickly pull up a piece of critical info? No.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?
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no Linux access
That rules out many important classes of applications, including imaging and games.