Comments on: Access Linux Platform Demo Screenshots

2) If the launcher Access finalizes on is incapable of presenting/listing ALL apps (PalmOS-native, MAX-native, Java-native and Linux-native) in a single view, this whole platform is rather poorly conceived. Having to manually enter a separate screen to access PalmOS apps through POSE would show how inelegantly PalmOS support has been grafted onto NetFrontLinux. Essentially this would mean the OS represents 4 disintegrated environments under one hastily-assembled roof.

3) PalmOS is DEAD. All that remains is (cynical) support of some PalmOS apps up to PalmOS 5. Cobalt and all the work that went into that have been thrown into the dumpster. PalmLinux (the tragic attempt to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel) and all the work that went into that have also been thrown into the dumpster. What remains of PalmOS is a caricature that makes a mockery of the past 4 years of development. PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera. The amazing thing no one seems to have realized is that it will make more sense to use StyleTap Platform to "emulate" PalmOS on a Windows Mobile device than it does to use POSE to emulate PalmOS on a NetFrontLinux device. StyleTap's existence effectively neutralizes any potential competitive advantage for Access of having POSE on NetFrontLinux. $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Benhamou,McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.

TVoR

Copyright 2006
TVoR, Inc.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

That's not what they paid the money for. You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access.

As a side note, I would argue that a "high megapixel" camera is hardly a gimmick. But then, my camera uses 4"x5" negatives with an effective resolution of 100dpi (that's 20 megapixels for those who don't care to do the arithmetic.)

May You Live in Interesting Times

May You Live in Interesting Times

Honestly, I don't know how much the CMS acquisition and the potential it's "access" influenced the price, but I've got to think it played a major role. In any case, I think the CMS acquisition by PalmSource certainly paid off for some people. We'll see if ACCESS can make it pay as well.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

No, I'll just tell it to Microsoft (and almost any other big software company that has tried to bang the Chinese Dragon over the past couple of decades), Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, Palm, and a cast of hundreds of other rueful, remorseful American starlet companies that ended up getting soddomized on the Chinese Casting Couch (C³). Even a company that has achieved fleeting success in China like Motorola is really just being used by the Chinese and will eventually be chewed up and spit out now that the Chinese have benefitted from Motorola's IP and instruction. In 2004, the Chinese sold the United States $160 billion more in goods than they bought. In 2005 the China trade deficit skyrocketed to $200 billion. I'll leave it up to you to learn how Wal-Mart has become one of the biggest contributors to this deficit, while at the same time becoming a cancer on the American economy. Once the Chinese figure out the auto industry all he11 will break loose and they'll probably end up causing a recession in the USA, allowing the Chinese to swoop in and buy up American assets a firesale prices... China already has a disconcerting amount of control over the US economy - what they do with that power over the next 2 or 3 years will be interesting to watch.

While it's no longer mandatory for the foreign dreamers to go into joint ventures with state-owned enterprises in China, in the long run the main winner in any interactions with the Chinese economy is CHINA. Dazzled by the pipe dream of selling to a captive market of 1 BILLION Chinese citizens, American companies are willing to allow the Chinese to take liberties with their a$$es, including blatant intellectual property theft. Typical story: American company comes over. "Partners" with the Chinese (actually, the Americans put up most of the $$$). Endures a few lean years while the Chinese copy/borrow/steal every trade secret the Americans possess. Shuts down Chinese operations due to lack of profitability (often because the Chinese are by then using American techniques + cheap labor to undercut the Americans). It's a sad, sad refrain and the few exceptions don't disprove the rule.

>>>And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

The way Access is treating PalmOS like an afterthought suggests either they are insane or yes, PalmOS is of minimal importance to them. It's possible that of all the companies that had bid for PalmSource, Access valued PalmOS the LEAST. A company that valued PalmOS would not end development of that OS within a few months of purchasing the OS. "Due diligence"? Was Access suckered or was PalmOS never the primary target in this takeout? That's the $320 MILLION question. In any event, for those of us who value PalmOS, the point is moot: PalmOS is now comatose, on NetFrontLinux life support and has no chance of returning to life unless (as I alluded to at the time of the PalmSource sale) Access is holding PalmOS hostage + may be willing to sell the rights to Garnet and all the Cobalt + PalmLinux code to Palm for a price (say, $150 MILLION). Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

NetFrontLinux/DogFoodOS looks like a shaky kludge that Access will have little chance of delivering on time. China MobileSoft's current OS products may be shipping, but are they anything special in + of themselves? No. Is using CMS as an "in" to the Chinese market going to work? Probably not. China likes "free" more than any other feature, and Chinese carriers + cellphone manufacturers will simply reverse engineer + clone any Linux-based phone OS, thereby effectively shuting Access out of the loop once Access has done all of the hard work. (Ask Palm about piracy problems in Asia...)

>>>Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

So? Somewhere in China, someone's probably already produced µLinux - an exact copy of mLinux - and is giving it away for free.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

If that was true, there would be little reason to bother developing NetFrontLinux. And if mLinux is not exactly the second coming of Amiga then the sale price of PalmSource becomes suspect.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.

Again, given how many Linux-based OSes may be out soon and how little IP is valued in countries like China, if Access looked at the Big Picture it would be obvious the rainbow doesn't end in China.

*************************************************************************

- An interesting summary article on the Chinese economy:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050301/china.html

- A nice summary of what to do to TRY and succeed in doing business in China. Too bad Palm didn't know these common sense "rules" a few years ago BEFORE they embarassed themselves in China:

http://www.buyusa.gov/china/en/doingbizinchina.html

TVoR

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

IMO, the later.

You may be right.

You're still not getting the point about China, though. Here are three thoughts to help you out:

No, Marty. I don't think YOU are getting the point about China.

1) China announced today that it has 400 million mobile phone subscribers. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/23/content_4218207.htm)

And how many computer users are there in China? And how are Microsoft's SALES of Windows XP and Windows desktop apps going? Foreign firms are always drooling over the tantalizing SIZE of the Chinese market, but the harsh reality of the inaccessibility + inequality of that market are usually only realized by the time it's too late.

2) CMS is already a Chinese company. Nothing you're pointing out about Western companies doing business in China applies. And it is doing very well in China.

No, China MobileSoft is a China-based subsidiary of a JAPANESE company. Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

3) China is only one of the major consumers of telephony in Asia, although it is the fastest growing.

And phone OSes can be copied and commoditized ("legally" or illegally) in other parts of Asia just as easily as they can be in China. Greed and piracy are international.

As far as "free", you don't get how the telecom business in China works. While there are knock off companies, they don't give their wares away, either.

The pirates might not give their wares away for free, but they can drastically undercut the companies that actually had to spend R + D $$$ coming up with the original software. Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick? The Japanese Capitalst Pigs who are now the China MobileSoft masters, or Excess China Corp - who just happen to be owned by a friend of China Telecom's chairman? Hard decision, isn't it? I'm amazed that you thing the China MobileSoft relationships will continue on, business as usual now that they are owned by the Japanese.

And no, Access isn't holding PalmOS hostage. Palm, as you'll recall, has license rights already, for a lot less than $150M.

Palm has the rights to a DEAD platform. If they plan on just playing out the PalmOS string, releasing more devices powered by the now-overwhelmed, hacked-up PalmOS 5, their current contract covers them well. Palm has PalmOS locked up well past the point that it's obsolete (which it arguably already is). But if Palm was hoping on extending PalmOS to be capable enough to power the next generation of mobile devices, Access has dashed those hopes with its pathetic New Plan for NetFrontLinux. Since Palm lacks the ability to create a competitive next-generation OS on its own, that would mean Palm will end up turning to Windows Mobile - by default. And since Palm lackes the design/engineering skills to differentiate itself from the other Windows Mobile hordes + can't hope to compete on price, it has no hope of sustaining profitability. What a dilemma. A self-induced dilemma, all stemming from the shell game Palm played when they spun PalmSource off to make a quick buck.

Access paid more for PSRC than they meant to. There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding. But they knew what they wanted and what they wanted it for, and it wasn't PoS, as the ALP announcement makes abundantly clear.

Access paid a ridiculous fee for PalmSource and I've gone on record as predicting that this gamble will ultimately bankrupt the company. If the presented plans for the architecture of NetFrontLinux are to be believed (and one assumes that Access truly did "due diligence" and understood how little Cobalt/PalmLinux offered a company looking for an OS solution NOW), then yes, Chinana MobileSoft is the key. (Because the Montpellier, France subsidiary sure as he11 wasn't the key!)

These are Interesting Times. Like Lennon said: Strange Days Indeed.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

CMS is in Nanjing, and yes, I know what that means in china/japan relations. But you answered your own question. Besides CMS, Access gets an American front company to do business for it in places where Japan is not so well loved, and an EU subsidiary.

Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick?

Like I said, you're not getting it. CMS doesn't do business directly with China Telecom. It does business with handset makers. And despite the existance of "Excess China Corp", the makers have already answered your question: they're buying from CMS already.

Your wrong about Access going bankrupt over the PSRC buy. The math doesn't work out to make that likely. At worst, they do what NTT did with its huge purchase of Verio: write it off as a bad decision.

Japanese companies aren't bounded by the sort of short-term quarter-to-quarter definition of 'success' that US companies live with and the Japanese government isn't big on allowing its tech companies to fail.

Besides, Access is going to deliver ALP and it's going to be successful in the largest, fastest growing, phone market in the world.

I recommend that Ryan find some buddies who can read Russian and Japanese, but especially Chinese.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

Particularly right after the disclosure of how the bidding unfolded, I wondered if this wasn't how it would play out in the end by design. We didn't know what was being said between Palm and Access. But based on what Access has disclosed about their ALPOS, it seems they aren't "planning" on that at the moment. Not that it can't or won't happen, just that it doesn't appear to be the plan.

18 months seems pretty soon. ALP is supposed to be "available" at the end of 2006. That date needs only slip a little and the availability is pushed to a year from now. Then potential hardware manufacturers need some time to get their products to market. Seems that 18 month date will be hit just about the time the earliest unit gets into hands. Not much time for Access to evaluate the value of keeping POS in house or selling it off.

Either way this all shakes out, I've got my old T2, my new TX and a soon-to-arrive Zodiac. I think I'll be able to hold out until some more of the dust settles.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...") or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 2 Feb 08. You in?

May You Live in Interesting Times

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

Ummmm... Marty, give it time. China MobileSoft was not taken over by Access too long ago.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...")

Ummmm... Marty, I already said I did not know China Telecom was a real company. Thanks for re-stating that, though.

or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

Software theft continues unchecked in China. And China will continue to turn a blind eye to the theft of programs and intellectual property of foreign companies until foreign nations exert pressure on China through sanctions to comply with copyright laws. For years, victimized American software companies like Microsoft have tried to get China to play nice, but China only does what's in China's best interests. And the Chinese feel it's in their best interests to pirate American software to the tune of BILLIONS of $$$ per year rather than sending that money back to the rightful American copyright owners.

The United States should have gotten tough with China a LONG time ago. It's time we start boycotting products that are made in China and start supporting companies that cotinue to manufacture their goods in the USA.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

Not hedging - just aware that (like PalmSource + unlike Be) Access has assets that are valuable enough that they would likely attract a sale before they went bankrupt.

So the offer stands, but I'll modify it to read "Bankrupt or bought after financial losses."

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 25 Feb 08. You in?

I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out after financial losses) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

When you're proven wrong, you'll send the money to the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund on February 25, 2008. I thank you in advance for your kind donation.

http://tinyurl.com/ksyye

TVoR

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Most people would rather have Max Heapspace rather than Max Headroom...

In the name of Buddy Christ, I REBUKE thee!

Are you REALLY in Mountain View, Marty? Hilarious.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

That's not Marty's real address, Ryan. I drove over to meet Marty for a cup of tea but they said no one named Marty Fouts was ever at that address. Pity.

;-O

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Wow, Marty. That was harsh.

It deserves bannation,

"It"??? Gee Marty, I think you need to take a deep breath there. YOU don't decide who gets banned around here.

or you need to admit that you don't care about whether people are respectful of each other or not.

Ryan doesn't "NEED" to do anything. You "NEED" to stop making such absurd demands. Until this becomes Martyinfocenter, ranting the way you are now is WAY out of line. You "NEED" to apologize to Ryan and all of the readers of Palminfocenter for your latest rabid screed.

I don't care which, but pick one and do it.

Or else what? Are you gonna beat Ryan up if he doesn't do what you want him to do, tough guy? If you want to continue this conversation offline I'd be more than willing to deliver the biotchslapping in person. I go down to Mountainview periodically, so email me when you want to receive some TVoR lovin'.

I think a lot of people here would be amused if they knew who Skippy really is and why it knows so little about the industry it keeps writing about. I know I was amused when I found out.

So Dianne Hackborne finally figured it out and told you? Took her long enough. I'm actually surprised she said anything to you. I guess all's fair in love and war...

Whadya say, Skippy? You got any balls?

Ummmm... actually no, I don't. Of course I'm not supposed to. What's YOUR excuse for your tragic lack of cojones, Marty? When I ripped you a new one did the rapier also castrate you? Did you even HAVE any cojones to begin with?

'fess up to who you are and put us all on an even playing field.

Wait a minute. Did Ms. Hackborne tell you or not? Sounds like she didn't after all. Nice try, Marty.

Let's all have a look at that "web column" you write there in your parents' basement.

You want me to reveal who I write for? But if I do that, it would reveal my secret identity. Isn't it better to keep the mystery, Marty? Tittilation serves a function. Just ask Dianne!

Of course, Skippy won't. Skippy, in addition to being a r. crumb loser, is a monumental coward.

Tough words from a feeble computer geek. You really hurt me there, Marty. Ow. You. Really. Hurt. Me.

Serves me right for trying to be nice to you...

Take care, little buddy.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

More insults, more braggadoccio from behind the mask, but in reality, nothing but cowardice.

Go ahead, Skip, post your email address here. I'll be happy to arrange a meeting with you. Better yet, post your own address. Coward.

Of course you won't. You don't have the guts. Never have had. Never will. P1ss your pants every time you even think about the possibility that someone might figure out who you are.

Maybe I'll drop by and say hello, next time I'm down your way. But I'll leave it to you to drum up enough courage to admit it in public.

Oh wait, I forgot. You don't have any courage.

Guess you'll be Skippy forever.

May You Live in Interesting Times

But that's not where I'd bother to visit you.

Much more fun to come down your way.

Coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

There's no mall a block from my house. In this, as in so many things, you are, as usual, very wrong.

You're the lowest form of internet life, Skip, the anonymous coward. And no, I'm not calling you names. I'm describing what you are.

Post your own address, or, as you are so fond of saying, S.T.F.U

You won't, of course. If you did, people would find out about how pathetic you really are, living in your parents' basement and working that minimum wage job. They'd discover how many of your claims are just the sad lies of another in an endless parade of R Crumb losers.

But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

And all because you'd lose that minimum wage job of yours if your employer knew how you behaved on the web.

That's right, Skippy. I know who you are, where you live, where you work, how little you make and the real reason you're afraid to admit in public who you are.

and no, Skippy, I'm not cranky, and I have no problem at all letting things go. I've just decided its time someone call you on your cowardice.

So, as we say where I came from, put up or shut up.

Coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Anyway, the comment displaying system is going to be much improved soon so stay tuned.

So can we please take a break here, call a truce and go back to talking about ALP.

-Ryan

As things stand now, there's surely pretty minimal incentive for any folks who could actually answer questions or clarify misapprehensions to participate at all. Being subjected to inane personal abuse and having one's personal life invaded by noisy morons isn't really all that much of a draw.

My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch.

That's typicall skippy bullpucky.

If your words were arguments about the topic at hand, that would be true, and anonymity reasonable.

But those aren't the words we're discussing here, Skippy. We're discussing your unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes of those you argue with.

A coward stands behinds a mask and hurls insults of the sort you do. You wouldn't have the guts to behave that way if you knew that you could be responded to in kind, or held accountable for your behavior.

As I said, correctly, your employer would fire you if they knew what sort of stuff you are posting from their computers on their time.

You are the lowest form of life on the internet, Skippy.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Ryan, (said with the best southern drawl I can muster) honestly sheriff, if you don't protect the decent folk in your town, they'll just move on to other parts. (And some of those who have moved on just get "lynched" in abstentia.)

Why did I ask you not to put my full name on the reviews I wrote? I concluded that I couldn't trust some of the members on this site from hitting below the belt, and I couldn't trust you to provide any protection from that. (Fortunately up to this point, no one has found me to be a big enough fish to fry to go looking for personal information and plaster it all over these pages.) I do like PIC, so I'm glad you've decided to do something about it. Here's hoping it will be effective.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

You're free to provide all the SPIN-free, B.S.-free info you want. Unfortunately, history has shown us that Palm/PalmSource employees are more interested in trying to cover up for their mistakes than they are answering questions HONESTLY.

One doesn't call truces with anonymous cowards like Skippy, Ryan.

Oh dear. Looks like you'll just never learn, Marty. Someday I hope you'll learn to back down before end up regretting it.

The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

I'm amazed at the number of Palm Apologists that trash talk Palminfocenter yet still feel compelled to keep hanging around here stirring up the hornets nest. Then they go crying to their mommies when the hornets nest fall on them and they get stung. Go figure. Dumba$$es like you and Jeff Kirvin won't get any sympathy for your tragic plight, Marty. Bashing Ryan and making ridiculous demands is the familiar modus operandi of the sleazy Apologists that are attempting to bully Palminfocenter into falling in line with the other useless, treacle-soaked Palm sites. Your recent barrage of statements only shows how little class you have.

Besides, every time you smack Skippy into submission, it simply chills out for a few days until the next time it tries something else equally disgusting.

Tough talk from a little wuss, Marty. Try to be a bit more civil in your posts here in the future.

Take care,

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

I find it highly ironic that you screech so loudly about personal attacks and disagreements, and yet you feel free to open fire on Ryan and the way he runs his site over so trivial a perceived offense as not banning TVOR. I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

As far as I can see, Penguin, you haven't contributed nearly enough to this site to justify getting special protection against the big bad TVOR. While it would be nice if TVOR would rein it in once in awhile, I must note that it takes two to argue, and he wouldn't have anything to go on if you didn't feel the need to always try for the last word. So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.

I agree that that sort of thing is completely unacceptable. Perhaps there should be a tiny link at the bottom of every post to report the posting of personally identifying information (without consent).

However, I cannot agree that outright banning TVoR would make this site a better read. Maybe a moderation system *will* be a good idea. As long as I can leave it set to completely unfiltered, I'm happy.

(To play devil's advocate, I might also point out that moderation can occasionally drive people away when the community is not large enough to get a diverse range of modders, because the opinions will slant based on personal politics and not the content.)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

Take your own advise. Everything you've suggested is far more fitting of yourself.

So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.

I don't. I blame Ryan for pretending to run a site where he wants his users to act as if they respect each other when he's doing no such thing.

If Ryan really wanted this site to ensure that sort of respect, he'd turn on IP logging, and include IP addresses with people's posts.

May You Live in Interesting Times

You're trying to have it both ways. If it's completely unacceptable, than don't accept it. There are two solutions to people like Skippy. Either you ban them because they won't grow up, or you change your site's rules so that they can't post anonymously, and are forced to be accountable for their juvenile delinquency.

Ryan should do away with anonymous posting. That will answer any claims Skippy has about being 'censored', because he'll be free to post all he wants. And it'll put him on the same level of accountability as everyone else.

Having watched the Skippys of the internet destroy more than a few forums, and having seen just about every imaginable attempt to use technology to control them, I have come to the conclusion that that is the only way to keep a site civilized but uncensored.

May You Live in Interesting Times

I be cool with dat, yo. ;) But then what do you do when there's someone who may want to post inside information but doesn't wish to reveal their identity? Downsides to everything...

On accountability: I see TVoR as a fictional character, invented by someone with an extremely sadistic sense of humour - be they a 15-year-old in the basement or some help desk worker or web columnist or Diane Hackborn's ex-bitch or whoever/whatever the hell he/she is. You'll never be able to believe what it says (I use 'it' 'cause who can tell gender on the net?) or take anything it says seriously 'cause it chooses to remain anonymous. As such, opinions from people like yourself will always be given a little more weight by readers like myself because you're a real person.

Keep that in mind before you give it precisely what it wants - an argument. And enjoy reading the conspiracy theories that are so damn out-there they just might be true. Or just skip past them. None of us are taking TVoR words as gospel. Merely enjoying them, 'cause its posts are quite well-crafted.

I agree that posting personally identifying information without consent is wrong. Immediate deletion of such content and a three-strikes (or two, I'm not fussy) rule should apply.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

When company employees post on a business related web site anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing. Its generally viewed as a dishonest practice. This is because you will never hear them saying bad things about the company, and they therefore give a one sided perspective.

Even when exposed, you can still not expect to hear anything useful from them, as they are unlikely to admit to faults by their company. For an example of how this happens in practice for non-PSRC employees, one only have to look at Heather Cullen from Palm's post, and how they get received on the Brighthand and 1src forums.

So, in short, you will never hear an fully honest opinion from a company employee on a public board, and therefore I have very little sympathy for them being abused.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

I'm not looking for "special" protection. I don't believe that posting people's (no matter where they work) home addresses, family photos, and abusing them in the basest possible terms is reasonable, and there's no provocation that can justify it, not even your heart-rending disappointment over Garnet and Cobalt. If you can't recognize the difference between free discourse and unrestrained abuse, that's going to cut down on your social life.

I don't mind discussing things, but none of what I've described above is discussion: as I said, it's a cheap attempt to intimidate people and stifle discussion.

Please don't suggest that this sort of nonsense is limited to those of us who work for PalmSource, either—David Beers, among others, receives treatment which is just as deplorable. In fact, anyone who takes issue with your little agendae receives much the same treatment, so it's not about working for PalmSource, it's more about failing to endorse the views of those who see any means to shut up those who disagree as "fair game".

Contrary to your claims, I have also never posted "anonymously" here--I've been clear from my first posting about whom I work for and what I did there.

The bottom line is that as long as off-topic abuse and invasion of privacy are the norm here, then there's no incentive to contribute anything substantial. And Palm Infocenter will become the place where you can read about it all second- or third-hand, after the news has been published at Linux Devices, Computing Unplugged, or someplace else.

B. S. Skippy's a mean little punk, and deliberately abusive.

Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times.

It's also not a 6th grade playground. If you want skippy-style 'entertainment' the web is full of porn sites you can pursue.

It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old.

Nope. they're the ramblings of a 15 year old who has read too much r crumb and mad magazine and spent too much time in the 'adult' part of the web.

Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies.

I've paid close attention. I've yet to see Skippy say something intelligent about the industry that someone else hadn't posted here first.

You're confusing a skill at cold reading with an understanding of the industry.

No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

You don't seem to know many teenagers.

May You Live in Interesting Times

That one's easy. They email it to Ryan, he vettes it, and it gets posted by him as a rumor.

It's a lot less work for Ryan than real moderation is.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Doesn't work. That's more or less what's going on now, with the bonus that Ryan tries hard to notice offensive posts and get them off before anyone complains.

Try PalmInfocenter for great, free and open conversation about the real issues.

Free and open conversation is a fine thing. I'm all for it. But childish behavior like Skippy's does more to squash conversation than moderation ever does. Not everyone comes to the internet with an asbestoes suit, and Skippy's taunting drives away people who don't want to put up with the abuse.

You do a fine job of representing an opposing point of view without it. All I'm asking is that everyone who posts here be held to the standard Ryan claims he believes in.

May You Live in Interesting Times

I shudder to think.

Please. Enough with the angst-filled teen drama queen routine, Mr. Schlesinger. It doesn't suit a Crowley Kiddie like you.

Abusers of anonymity (and pseudonymity) do nothing but stifle discussion through abuse and attempted intimidation. Of course, pointing at someone's personal web site isn't terribly intimidating when they're the one who put it up there in the first place, as Dianne's noted elsewhere—if we felt we had things to hide, we'd probably be hiding 'em.

So what exactly is your beef. Ms Hackborn's site and your sites ar up on the Internet for all to stare at in amazement. My linking to your site hardly constitutes "attempted intimidation". I'm starting to see why this Lunktard individual too a major disliking to you. You probably DESERVE everything he's done to you.

But it's telling that we hear the advice that one shouldn't "post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you" from those who go to great lengths to preserve their own lack of accountability (since this sort of abuse really has nothing to do with anonymity). How more direct a statement of a desire to simply shut people down (at least if they're "non-anonymous", i.e. attackable) could there be?

I'm going to have to put that paragraph through an online translator to try and decode it.

Happily, I have nothing to hide or be embarassed by. But I wonder: We've already seen pictures of my family made fodder for "discussion" here. Where does it stop?

Actually, you have PLENTY to be embarassed by, starting with that hideous maw. When were pictures of your family "made fodder for "discussion" here?

There's no reason to believe that those who think prying into areas of people's lives which have nothing whatsoever to do with Palm, PalmSource, Palm OS or anything or the sort would show any restraint at all in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way. Indeed, we've seen exactly the contrary.

Huh??? "in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way"??? You've GOTTA be kidding me.

Those who conflate accountability with censorship really want to have only one opinion expressed: their own. Anyone who disagrees is fair game for "embarassment" and abuse of all sorts, ranging from the wildly off-topic to the outright intrusive.

No, David. You need to get a grip on reality here. You and Marty storm into Palminfocenter with your sarcastic, rude attitude, spew B.S. like how a failed Kyocera smartphone outsold all Windows Mobile phones and expect to receive respect just because yo work(ed) for PalmSource? Puh-lease. If you wanted to contribute facts and helpful discussion, you could have. Instead, you came here looking for a fight, thinking you could show the world how clever you (think you) are. But when you got your a$$ handed to you in a sling, suddenly you cry "foul" and go running off to Ryan bawling. Tough T|T's, Schlesinger. Suck it in, get off the floor, wipe the blood off your nose/face/a$$ and MOVE ON. Given your history, your indignance is LAUGHABLE.

Only the government can censor.

Are you SURE about that, Bubba?

If someone doesn't like the demands a given printing press places on them, let 'em use a different one more to their liking.

Then why don't you remind us why you're still here? If the rules are SO offensive to you at Palminfocenter, why do you keep responding to posts here? Bizarre.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

No. It stops being "JUST a PDA news site" as soon as people's home addresses, personal photographs, friends, relatives, etc., get reduced to tools used by those invested in a personal lack of accountability to stifle the viewpoints of others. Neither Marty's home address nor my personal photos have any relevance to "PDA news".

I've found PIC doesn't have any news that you can't get from MobileRead, LinuxDevices and Google Alerts, so that's hardly a reason to hang around here. The times when there is discussion about PDA news that's insightful or entertaining to grown-ups are rare enough that regulars like hkklife express surprise when they happen.

I used to think that people who have earned a good living from the Palm OS platform owed it to the platform to present knowledgable viewpoints on PIC--PIC because, for all its problems, it was still the de facto place folks go for Palm-related news. A few weeks back I was having dinner with a bunch of Palm developers from around the Chicago area. The conversation turned to the state of Palm Infocenter and one guy I respect a lot turned to me with an incredulous expression on his face and said "How do you do it? I mean, how can you post there?" The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "Karma system" but if it's anything resembling a framework that enables readers to vote negative or positive to a person's comments, then I STRONGLY disagree. The general flaw with that scheme is that it unfairly allows ANYONE to vote against your post for ANY reason. Regardless of what merits your opinion may have. That places power where it doesn't belong; to the zealots. For example, if I posted a comment critical of the numerous flaws the Treo 650 has, Treo fans would come out of the woodwork and immediately "vote down" my post giving me low Karma, simply because they don't want negative comments spoken about their beloved device. Is that fair?

To put it a more colorful way, a Karma system creates a McCarthy-like environment, fostering an atmosphere of "say nice things about the Republic or you'll be voted a communist!". This is an enthusiast community, not a lynch mob. No one should be punished for their opinions, or for simply having one that differs from the mainstream.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

The whole comments system is being reprogrammed as we speak. You will be able to choose if you want the unfiltered "no holds barred PIC romper room" or the "respectful engaging mobile discussions PIC" in your profile. By default, the news articles will show the latter.

Okay, I gave it a shot.

Good luck with the new comments system, Ryan, but if "romper room" (including invasive, abusive and off-topic personal attacks) is going to continue to be an "option", I expect I'll be giving it a miss...

That's tongue-in-cheek, and meant to be entertaining, huh Skippy?

Consider me entertained.

Coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty says that wasn't his home address. Are you calling him a LIAR? Shocking.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Actually, Skippy, I never stormed in, I wasn't sarcastic until you started behaving like an ass, and you have not once shown anything I've written her to be B.S.

Sure, Marty. Blame ME for your behaviour.

>>>like how a failed Kyocera smartphone outsold all Windows Mobile phones

How skippy of you. "You and Marty" never said that Skippy. I have never made any claim on the topic.

We know, Marty. I have said before that Schlesinger's actions were inexcusable. And he has yet to admit he lied. Or apologize.

>>>and expect to receive respect just because you work(ed) for PalmSource?

Oh, dear. How quickly Skippy forgets. I tried to obscure the fact that I worked for PSRC because I wanted my statements to stand on their own merits. You, ironically for such a fan of anonymity, wouldn't let that stand and made a big deal of who I was.

No, Marty. You tried to hide who you were so you could Astroturf at Palminfocenter. Period. Pretending otherwise is a perfect example of your utter MENDACITY. I found your actions sleazy, and so I "outed" you - just as I would "out" ANYONE I knew had a hidden agenda and was trying to manipulate readers. Mr. Mace was legendary for trying to use the so-called "street cred" of being a PalmSource employee to manipulate those who thought he was trustworthy. That's truly odious and should not be tolerated.

>>>Puh-lease. If you wanted to contribute facts and helpful discussion, you could have.

I did, Skippy. I pointed out a bunch of mistakes in claims you were making. As soon as you realized that you'd been caught out, instead of acting like an adult, you descended into sarcastic, rude behavior. Just as you did in this thread.

Nonsense, Marty. You lack the ability to know when you're wrong or to concede defeat in a debate. Re-read the threads in question and it becomes obvious that you need to rethink how you conduct yourself online.

You're a coward, Skippy, and a liar, and I for one, can find nothing 'tongue-in-cheek' or entertaining about the post I'm responding to. Nor, I doubt, will your fanbois. So on top of everything else, you're slipping.

Not everything I say is a joke, Marty. The fact that you lack the ability to discern obvious humor from a serious post is not surprising. Your constant name-calling speaks for itself. As usual, though, I will not reduce myself to your level. And as usual, you have LOST this debate. Congratulations. We have some nice parting gifts for you as you exit stage left.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

So, in short, you will never hear an fully honest opinion from a company employee on a public board, and therefore I have very little sympathy for them being abused.

Astroturfing is as sleazy as it gets. If Palm/PalmSource employees had simply been HONEST in their posts and not hidden who they were, they would have been treated with respect. The ONLY Palm/PalmSource employee that deserved any respect here was Dianne Hackborn, and she was guilty of a fair amount of Astroturfing as well.

If David Schlesinger or any other PalmSource wants to contribute to Palminfocenter, no one is stopping them from doing so. As a show of good faith (and to make up for his previous juvenile behaviour), perhaps Mr. Schlesinger would be willing to participate in a MODERATED Question and Answer session with Palminfocenter readers. As long as he leaves the smarta$$ replies and toddler level Japanese quoting at home...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

As bad as "official" Palm stance is, you're not likely to find much better response on Treocentral, BH or 1src to the "nitty gritty" issues. Frustration is guaranteed ESPECIALLY if you try to do something the "hard working" regulars there deem not in line with Palm's intended usage (CDMA cell phone connectivity, for example).

Even fairly advanced/experienced POS users such as myself are basically left to their own devices these days, what with software updates vanishing daily, Palm's always underwhelming outsourced tech support and this "good ol' boy" Apologist Allegiance system in place on the remaining major web sites/forums (BH, 1src etc). Basically, if your technical prowness isn't up to the standards of Shadowmite or Dmitry Grinberg you're kinda SOL these days. I'd personally like to see PIC evolve more to a news/reviews/biz oriented site and another site evolved to allow for some serious technical support & advice instead od constantly trying to spin "It's a feature, not a bug".

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

The PalmSource complainers brought the wrath of TVoR upon them with their sleazy behaviour. Once they remorm and treat others with respect, they will be treated in a similar manner.

Something else to remember is that Voice's posts are, first of all, ALWAYS tongue in cheek.

Actually, I'm always being dead serious.

Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times. It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old. Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies. No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

Thanks hkklife, but I'm actually a "barely-literate 15 year old"! Shocking, isn't it? In fact, I've never even used a PDA! Gam3 b0i AdVanC3 4evR!!!

Addtionally, as Tim said, Voice's posts are always exceedingly ENTERTAINING, well-written, and grammatically and syntactically correct--regardless of actual content. That, (TO ME) makes for exceedingly compelling/thought-provoking content, especially on a boring Friday afterooon in the dead of winter. In this day and age, ESPECIALLY on the 'net, such maturity is be commended. So I guess I am in the minority in preferring to read well-written, well-argued bits of toilet humor instad of slang-filled "fanb0i" rah-rah cheerleading.

Thanks again, but sorry - I can't lend you $100. Since so many (well maybe 5) people here are TVoR haters, they will soon have their site to do with as they wish. All the kitty pictures you can handle...

Since PIC is a "anonymnity by scree name" free site, I think no one can complain TOO loudly-but some moderation would probably be in the best interest for the general concensus of Ryan and the site. For the time being, those scorned can always just stop posting under their current nicknames and renew under a different moniker. Or they could start posting in the forums, which are a DECIDEDLY tamer place. Interestingly enough, most of PIC's traffic is split between "front page people" and "forums people". Few users frequently post in both sections.

Yes. TVoR has never posted in the forums. They would be "safe" there.

TreoCentral is as silly and pointless as any web forums I've ever seen. 1src is bland, bland, bland, and impossibly redundant. Brighthand has become a pathetic collection of a handful of "me too" high'n mighty types who force their own apologetic stance down everyone. The hailstorm of criticism unleasehed when I "broke" the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's intentional CDMA Bluetooth crippling brought out the lynch mob at BH ad they haven't settled down since.

Unfortunately, most of the PDA sites are either dead or dying. I posted previously about the problems that fragmenting the PalmOS PDA audience created. (TapWave sites, CLIE sites, Treo sites, Palm sites, etc, resulting in too few posters per given site.) With the PalmOS platform rapidly imploding, users will need to cluster around one or tw sites to maintain the critical mass necessary for reasonable discussion. Obviously, Palminfocenter should be one of the sites where PalmOS makes its Last Stand.

I am looking forward to Ryan's improved "system" with a mixture of trepidation and anticipation. And again, it's JUST a PDA news site. Everyone try to take a deep breath and start the week off to a better foot.

As soon as the PalmSource kiddies stop bashing me (while they're presumably at work!), I'll step aside to await the changes and see if I see a future for TVoR in the "new" Palminfocenter.

TVoR

P.S. Isn't it incredible how much the a-holes complain about things (websites, software, etc.) they receive FOR FREE? Just something for Marty, Beerty and David Schlesinger to ponder BEFORE they post another rant insulting this website...

(Anyone else feel free to chime in. Maybe Ryan can compile a list and send it Palm's way. If even 1/20th of the total questions get a serious response I'd be pleased)

1. Honest roadmap of future POS Treo plans--at least through '06. Any improvements in the glacial release schedule? Does Palm feel that stingty release schedule has hampered them or are they tring to be decidedly "non-Sony"?

2. When is Treo 650 EOL expected?

3. " " Garnet?

4. Palm's stance on ALP/Access (no spinning allowed)

5. Palm's outlook/plans for non-Treo traditional PDAs

6. Why were so many compromises made during the LD's conceptual stage?

7. Why did Palm see fit to abandon the high-end PDA market after the (relative) success of the T3?

8. Why did Palm not license the UC to anyone other than Garmin? Why have Athena periperals been so underwhelming and scarce to date--18 months after introduction? Does Palm feel even slightly responsible for the demise of Tapwave due to not licensing them the UC and giving the Zodiac a desperately needed infusion of chargers, cables, and cradles?

9. What is the REAL reason for the utter abandonment of Graffiti 1? Did anyone ever bother to try and work out a settlement with Xerox? Would Xerox be receptive to selling a plugin directly to endusers? Why not license a cut down, simplified version of Tealscript and allow the user to "customize" the handful of offending strokes (f, i, k, t,? etc)

10. Why does Palm not offer $-for-download software/app/OS updates for existing devices? Why doesn't Palm institute a real support/upgrade policy (one major free update, one minor free update, app updates for $)? Is this a viable option going forward as the final Garnet devices appear likely to have unnaturally long life cycles?

11. Who will be Palm's OEM for future Treo/pda production. Does Palm seriously care about build quality etc. or was the LD just an expensive and buggy fluke?

12. Has the Verizon "marriage" gone well? What's it like having to deal ultra-fickle carrier buyers with no brand/platform loyalty instead of the legions of Palm faithful/apologists who are guaranteed to buy whatever new devices creep out?

13. What, if anything, does Hawkins do on a daily/weekly basis for Palm? What's his stance on the 700w?

14. Has Palm ever seriously considered licensing/acquiring the BEST standalone apps out there (eReader (again), TCMP etc) and bundling them with every Palm device as full versions? Why has Palm failed to capitalize for the umpteenth time on their devices' "better than you'd expect" media playback capabilities in an attempt to capture just a SLIVER of the iPod hip kid market.

15. Why does Palm continue to cower in fear at the US CDMA telcos? Why the intentional crippling of the BT stacks for CDMA handsets on the '05 Palm devices? Many powers users demand the seamless domestic coverage of CDMA yet still want to use BT DUN. Why can Palm not realize this?

16.Why is the Phone Link updater so infrequently updated? If Palm doesn't want their users to use BT cellular connectivity then why not subsidize wi-fi hotspots nationwide?

17. Would Palm ever consider giving a HUGE middle finger to the telcos and exclusively selling unlocked GSM Treos at a GOOD price and joining up with MVNOs to offer data & feature-rich Treos at reasonable prices with no stifling contracts?

18. Palm's stance on Wi-Max etc. Would Palm ever consider again giving the finger to the telcos and joining up with Google?

19. Has Palm considered hiring ideo (again) to design a Palm V for the new millennium? How about a Razr-style Treo? Does Palm feel that style/flash/size matters AT ALL?

20. Any chances of a home-brewed Palm Linux solution to leapfrog/sidestep ALP/Access? Any chance of Palm purchasing the pieces of FrankenGarnet/Cobalt outright? Would a dual "WinMob in highend devices/Garnet 5.99 in lowend devices" strategy be viable for the 2-3 years?

21. Has Palm ever considered selling higher-margin limited run "deluxe" versions of their mainstream models exclusively on their website & retail kiosks for enthusiast users? Examples: Treo 650 with 64mb RAM and different colored housing or a LifeDrive with higher capacity battery & 6gb HD.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

"The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future."

That's very disappointing to hear. You're one of this site's leading lights and the place is a better, more interesting read for it.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Indeed.

"The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future."

That's very disappointing to hear. You're one of this site's leading lights and the place is a better, more interesting read for it.

Beersy made that story up. Ask him to name WHO those 12 disciples were. He won't say. BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED.

No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

Another classy response from you, Marty. That will bring you a LOT of sympathy...

>>>I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

Take your own advise. Everything you've suggested is far more fitting of yourself.

Wow.

You don't have the courage to insult people the way you do, except through the belief that no one knows who you are, so there'll be no consequences.

Well, if Ryan had any brass, this time there would be, and he'd ban you, say for six months.

Thanks for sharing, Marty. How long should he ban YOU for your behaviour?

> ...I regret that hengeem perhaps took things a little too far
> with the clues I left (if you were in The City he could have
> posted a satellite photo of your house!..."

Ahem - someone posts a complete street address, "obscuring" it by removing some letters of only one word (e.g., "smith" ==> "sXXXh"), and literally nothing more, and they don't think THEY are the ones who "took things a little far"!?

It took me maybe 5 minutes to find the ONE street in Mountain View that pattern-matched your "obscured" word - and I live 3000 miles away in Virginia with almost literally NO knowledge about Mountain View!

Furthermore, I haven't the FAINTEST idea who you or P-etc are other than a couple (very) remote posters who occasionally (getting less occasionally!) post useful interesting PALM-etc-specific posts!

Good rationalization, hengeem. Yes, I provided you with the bullets that killed Marty. I accept responsibility for you pulling the trigger. ;-O

> ...That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted
> here, was it?...

Gack!

Hmmm...YOU said it wasn't!

== "...That's not Marty's real address, Ryan..."

That's what we term a "misdirection" hengeem. I was trying to prevent an angry mob with torches from showing up and doing bad things to Marty before he had a chance to flee.

Contrary to your claims, I have also never posted "anonymously" here--I've been clear from my first posting about whom I work for and what I did there.

Did you ever put your NAME in a Palminfocenter post before I "outed" you, Mr. Schlesinger? A simple "yes" or "no" answer will suffice.

B. S. Skippy's a mean little punk, and deliberately abusive.

And Marty's a sweet innocent victim. Boo Hoo Hoo!

>>>No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

You were saying something about maintaining civility and open discourse, I believe?

I tried to say it nicely, but since you were so rude, I'll rephrase: you can either accept the modifications Ryan decides to make, or you can go away. It's his site, and his decision.

Funny how they never see the irony, isn't it Adama?

Do you really want the front page to turn into nothing more than a Skippy/Lefty insulting contest with a bunch of fanbois cheering each of them on?

Why would PalmSource employee David "Lefty" Schlesinger get involved in a "front page insulting contest"? Is he THAT stupid?

TVoR

I hope someone emails each of the people Beersy listed and asks them about Beersy's claim that, "A few weeks back I was having dinner with a bunch of Palm developers from around the Chicago area. The conversation turned to the state of Palm Infocenter and one guy I respect a lot turned to me with an incredulous expression on his face and said "How do you do it? I mean, how can you post there?" The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter."

TVoR

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but if you asked Scott he'd probably say he was primarily dissing you in that part of the conversation. I don't know anyone (developer or otherwise) who doesn't like the fact that the Palm platform gets active discussion here (when actual discussion occurs, at least). I noticed Ben Combee sent PIC some love on the palm-dev-forum the other day, for example. You're just not going to see most of us hanging out and posting here.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

"Never in the field of personal technology have so few done so much harm to so many."

They realise that if she is banned, that will be the 'thin end of the wedge'. They realise that they will be next. And if they are banned, they will then face a challenge - either they will find another site which lets them run amok (and there aren't any others) or those nice little 'consulting fees' (from Redmond) will dry up.

Tell me, Simony: have you EVER contributed even a SINGLE post to Palminfocenter worth reading?

Marty, David Schlesinger, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin, twrock, Simony, Beersy, RhinoSteve... the circle is complete.

TVoR

But given the garbage you post as 'contributions', I take that as a great endorsement.

I would never be so arrogant as to question Ryan's decisions about this site, but it looks like it's "mission accomplished" for Marty, David Schlesinger, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin, et. al...

Pity.

TVoR

Yawn.

Actually, Skippy, I've said no such thing.

There's a liar here, Skippy, and, as usual, it's you.

May You Live in Interesting Times

He is not a troller... he is a palm user like many here, but unsatisfied with the dark future of the platform, created after a loooong sequence of errors made by themselves only.

And despite of Palms defects (Zire72 "Banana" and MDS for instance) he is rebelled with PALMSOURCE. In a consumer point of view.

No one has the right to ask for his banning, still more if this one is a PSRC employee. He has his rights to complain as A CONSUMER.

BTW, Master TVoR: anytime you need help on biotchslapping some folks, please send the "material" down here to Sao Paulo, Brazil.

I'll be very happy on helping you! ;-)

Your Padawan,

Ivan

The original question stands: Is Palmsource a reliable source of technology? Can we trust this company?

DOES PALMOS HAVE A FUTURE???

This is basically the matter TVoR arises, but no one has been able to answer it in an objective way.

It's lovely when you get emotional defending your company, but it leads anywhere than to personal bashings...

Ivan

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119340

1) NetFrontLinux is VERY much a work in progress, with numerous major decisions (like whether or not MAX will run on X Windows!) yet to be decided. The GUI is not set in stone and this demo should be taken with a Copeland-sized grain of salt.

2) If the launcher Access finalizes on is incapable of presenting/listing ALL apps (PalmOS-native, MAX-native, Java-native and Linux-native) in a single view, this whole platform is rather poorly conceived. Having to manually enter a separate screen to access PalmOS apps through POSE would show how inelegantly PalmOS support has been grafted onto NetFrontLinux. Essentially this would mean the OS represents 4 disintegrated environments under one hastily-assembled roof.

3) PalmOS is DEAD. All that remains is (cynical) support of some PalmOS apps up to PalmOS 5. Cobalt and all the work that went into that have been thrown into the dumpster. PalmLinux (the tragic attempt to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel) and all the work that went into that have also been thrown into the dumpster. What remains of PalmOS is a caricature that makes a mockery of the past 4 years of development. PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera. The amazing thing no one seems to have realized is that it will make more sense to use StyleTap Platform to "emulate" PalmOS on a Windows Mobile device than it does to use POSE to emulate PalmOS on a NetFrontLinux device. StyleTap's existence effectively neutralizes any potential competitive advantage for Access of having POSE on NetFrontLinux. $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Benhamou,McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.

************************************************************************

Since Access apparently has no serious interest in PalmOS, does it have ANY chance of surviving as anything other than a pathetic emulator within NetFrontLinux? Is Palm actively negotiating to re-acquire the rights to Garnet/Cobalt/PalmLinux?

Has Palm given up on PalmOS completely? Will Palm soon be announcing more Windows Mobile devices?

- Sadly, if PalmSource employees had spent as much energy coding a better OS as they have in ATTACKING me, Cobalt might have actually found its way into some REAL hardware YEARS ago. I wonder how many other individuals PalmSource has like Marty Fouts and David Schlesinger still making a mess of the company? Seems like they made a big mistake hiring these bozos. At least they got rid of one of them so far...

TVoR

I'm still interested in how that sort of thing constitutes either "news" or "discussion".

Actually, that wasn't the original question.

DOES PALMOS HAVE A FUTURE???

Actually, that's not what we were discussing when Skippy went off on his tirade.

This is basically the matter TVoR arises, but no one has been able to answer it in an objective way.

Actually, you'll find I was the first one here to suggest objective reasons why PalmOS should be declared dead as a result of the ALP announcement.

It's lovely when you get emotional defending your company, but it leads anywhere than to personal bashings...

It would be lovely if you actually had any idea who you were talking to or what your talking about, other than being one of Skippy's fanbois.

Here's a hint: I'm the one who left PSRC and has been arguing since that PalmOS is dead.

So, would you care to try for another set of excuses for Skippy's bad behavior?

May You Live in Interesting Times

For small values of "many", according to its profile. Has it always behaved this badly? In that case, you're right. Strike "impending".

Actually, I've been around since Palminfocenter started. And I've seen trolls worse than you and PalmSource's David Schlesinger come and go. You people are a dime a dozen.

>>>When company employees post on a business related web site
anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing.

Only by the terminally clueless. Even the definition of astroturfing you pointed me to when you started accusing me of it never makes that claim. That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing in case you forgot.

My goodness Skippy you don't seem to get anything right.

My goodness, Marty you don't seem to even be capable of keeping track of who said what when. Try not to mix Surur and me up. Remember: I'm the "good looking" one who uses CLIEs and posts about how the idiots at Palm/PalmSource have destroyed the platform; Surur's the "brainy" one who uses PPC/Windows Mobile and posts to make Palm Apologists look like buffoons.

>>>I know its distasteful, but without VOR this would be one very boring web site.

There are other ways to fix that than descending into the cesspool.

Besides, it takes only about three posts for Skippy to completely use up its repretoire. That's not a very high entertainment value.

And your posts here have kept many entertained, Marty.

>>>PIC still gets 50 comments to a story (most off topic) Most other POS websites are lucky to get 10.

Ah, so you'd rather 50 of Skippy's toilet humor posts. Got it. Put Surur down for quantity over quality.

Thank you for your latest contribution to the "Quality Post" side of the ledger, Marty. We're all indebted to you for gracing us with your presence again.

>>>Everybody needs to take a chill pill!

No Tim. Skippy needs to be reined in. You can expect the site
to feature even fewer knowledgable people in the future if it is
allowed to continue its behavior.

Are you and David Schlesinger the kind of "knowledgable people" that won't be featured in the future because of me, Marty? If that's the case, I deserve a medal for getting rid of your ilk.

And no, given Ryan's description of his rose-colored blinder view of the "free-for-all", I don't expect Skippy to be reined in. I expect the free fall to continue.

Unfortunately, the Palm platform's "free fall" is continuing exponentially faster than any declines seen in online PalmOS communities. Maybe if PalmSource had been able to deliver a useable OS the PalmOS "free fall" might have been prevented.

TVoR

'Struth.

Marty, it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource.

And the only "glaringly stupid comments" we're seeing here are coming from you and David Schlesinger. At this point, I'm starting to question your sanity, Marty. Do you want me to have an ambulance sent over to pick you up? What was your address again?

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Sure you did, Skippy. You edited out a few characters, but not enough to make it unrecognizable, as witness the post after yours.

When you get caught with your hand in the till, Skippy, it's time to stop lying about it.

Oh, I forgot. Lying's the only thing you do know how to do well.

These 2 imbeciles are probably the most unprofessional individuals I've ever seen representing their companies online.

Oh, lord, Skippy's showing his stupidity again. I don't now, nor have I ever represented a company, on line or off. Not that a juvenile punk like yourself would understand the difference between being employed by and representing.

Here's a hint, Skippy: when you call people names, you're not entertaining your audience if you keep using the same names they've heard since they were in sixth grade. You're just being boring.

On the other hand, when you lie as blatenly as you do; get as much wrong as you do; are as unwilling to accept responsibility for your own actions as much as you are; and you splash that behavior all over a web site as you do; it's not calling you names to describe you as an R Crumb loser. It's merely descriptive language.

Just as the best description for someone who behaves like you do from the mask of an anonymous account is coward.

coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

In case you didn't know, Marty, if your identity is known and you're posting to a site dealing with the products your company sells, by default you are representing your company. And dim-witted loose cannons like you only serve to damage PalmSource with every post you make. (Given your history, perhaps that's really your hidden agenda, though.)

While it's been fun witnessing your online psychological MELTDOWN, I'll have to leave further commentary up to the night shift. Most people are still slack-jawed at your little psychotic break, but I have a feeling Surur might be able to help out.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Now be a good little coward and run along. The adults would like to discuss ALP.

Marty, are you OK? Just give me the word and I'll be at your front door with some haloperidol within 45 minutes.

I'll say it again: it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource. Until we see Access' product mix, what they do with NetFrontLinux, whether or not they sell PalmOS back to Palm, etc it's all up in the air. The bottom line is that ALL of the possible scenarios explaining why Access paid so much for a moribund company involve significant risk taking on the part of Access. I believe they will fail in the long run.

Try not to be a hater, Marty. Hate will eat you ALIVE.

Thanks, for sharing, little Buddy.

Take care

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Because the 'fictional character' is intentionally trying to cause trouble in the real world for the people it attacks.

The whole address-posting thing was a step too far, and should result in a warning or brief suspension.

"too far" was months ago when Skippy and his buddies tried to seed lefty's email address for the spam harvesters and then tried to seed google with out-of-context references.

The whole address-posting thing was enough beyond too far to justify permanent banning, which, frankly, Ryan doesn't have the brass for.

If repeat offences occur, bring back the banning talk.

And how many times in the last few months do you think Ryan has expunged Skippy's postings because they were over the line?

Repeated offences did occur. Now is the time for banning or outing.

There's too many nutjobs on the net to take risks with that kind of thing.

So level the playing field. Make Skippy post as itself rather than hide behind the mask. See how much it enjoys being targeted that way.

The problem, Tim, is that Skippy's not just trying to be tongue-and-cheek funny. It's trying to do mischief to people in their lifes off the net. For the most part, it's small stuff, but sooner or later, it's going to go over the line in a way that causes more than just the nuisance of having to put up with more spam in your inbox.

So just when should we put an end to it, now, while the offenses are still mostly trivial, or later, after someone really does get hurt?

Skippy's had more than three strikes, it's had three innings of strikes. Time to send it to the showers.

May You Live in Interesting Times

and only a few messages earlier, you were saying that it was all about the list of stuff I quoted.

Wonder which one you'll stick with.

Until we see Access' product mix, what they do with NetFrontLinux, whether or not they sell PalmOS back to Palm, etc it's all up in the air.

Gee, Skippy, isn't it a bit late for you to start trying to behave reasonably? How long will it last this time?

The bottom line is that ALL of the possible scenarios explaining why Access paid so much for a moribund company involve significant risk taking on the part of Access.

Nope. They don't all and half the ones you've tried to outline aren't even possible. It's beyond you to understand why, and I'm not going to explain it to a punk like you, because of your behavior.

Besides we don't want to bore your fanbois.

I believe they will fail in the long run.

You believe a lot of stuff without evidence or justifiable argument.

You don't know enough about China to justify an opinion on Access' plan. You don't know enough about Access to assess their strengths and weaknesses. You don't know enough about the industry to even know who the players actually are.

You don't know enough to even bother teaching you what you don't know.

Now be a good little punk and go off to some other thread and entertain your fanbois.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Even weak is more effort than a punk like you is worth wasting. I'll remember not to try so hard next time.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Do you promise? Can we get that in writing?

Do you promise? Can we get that in writing?

Gee, Skippy, that wasn't very well written or entertaining. Careful, you're starting to let your fanbois down.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Gee Skippy, not particularly entertaining tonight. You really let the fanbois down.

They're not going to be happy with you when they read to this point and see you wandering off stage with your tail between your legs, feeling like old yeller at the end of the film.

Book is now open on how long it will be before the next time Ryan finds it necessary to edit one of Skippy's over-the-top posts.

Who want "24 hours"?

May You Live in Interesting Times

BTW, the First Amendment right to free speech, one of the most important civil rights, has never been allowed to excuse any form of slander. Yet, outright slander is permitted here at PIC, apparently in the name of 'free speech'.

and, amongst a cast of other trolling posts:

> ...Remember, Marty: I never posted your address. Do you REALLY
> live at the address hengeem posted? ...

Giggle (hook, line, and sinker!).

======

When you post something equivalent to:

== "Marty lives at 1234 LXXXXXr Street, Anytown, CA!"

and there is literally only one street in Anytown, CA that matches an 'L' followed by 5 letters folllowed by an 'r' and someone across the country from Anytown says "Oh, that was easy!", I would posit that it is you doing the address posting.

=====

But now I'm wondering why you ave repeated the "hengeem" assertion at all since trolling for a response out of me is ... just weird.

Better to stick with Marty trolling - they at least are PALM-centric, sort of.

This has never stopped. You'll note that every time I get referred to in certain quarters, I'm invariably "Palmsource's David Schlesinger".

This sort of thing is yet another pathetic attempt at intimidation, intended to shut down discussion, the hope clearly being that the subject of such attention will be scared off rather than face the "threat" of further Google-bombing. This, along with the other bad behavior, is simply a sign that the instigator truly has nothing of substance to say, and is only interested in shutting other people up by whatever means necessary.

We are still in business, at least unless something very unexpected happened in the past thirty-five seconds.

Why, we had a whole buncha people at 3GSM in Barcelona just the week before last, talking about our Linux platform and demonstrating our new UI framework! It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it. And, as near as I can tell, I'm the only one around these parts who's in a position to speak with any degree of authority about it.

But as I've said at the outset, the expectation that any such sharing would result in the posting of my home address, my family photos, and other personal information in no way relevant to the topic at hand, has significantly diminished my enthusiasm for doing so.

So, there you are.

Well, as far as that goes, this became "a matter of time" some months before the announcement of the ACCESS acquisition: we sold that trademark back to Palm and only have use of it for a limited time.

It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it. And, as near as I can tell, I'm the only one around these parts who's in a position to speak with any degree of authority about it.

But as I've said at the outset, the expectation that any such sharing would result in the posting of my home address, my family photos, and other personal information in no way relevant to the topic at hand, has significantly diminished my enthusiasm for doing so.

So, there you are.

If you have something useful or interesting to say about ALP, why dont you. Else dont. This whole "You should have treated me better, now I'm taking my ball and going home!" thing is a bit childish.

If you dont like it here, just go. No one is forcing you to be here. Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

> If you dont like it here, just go. No one is forcing you to be here. Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

Maybe.

To put this in perspective: Isn't it childish for you to come here to PIC and complain about 1src.com*, just because they had the good sense to ban you from their forums?

Anyway, this is the sort of post that you probably wouldn't make over at treocentral.com. The moderators over there would likely ban you from that site too.

*Footnote - I just love that graph Surur posted recently comparing hits to PIC and 1src.com. Not only did it use a logarithmic X-axis, but it looks like it was inverted too. Either this was an error or an inspired piece of statistics manipulation. (If the latter, Surur could get a very lucrative job in the M$ markteting department.)

Me? I'm not "battling it out" with anybody (and I'd note that I haven't responded to a single one of the I-haven't-bothered-to-count-how-many predictably juvenile and ridiculous goads which have been posted elsewhere in this thread).

I'm calmly and reasonably pointing out that the situation here is entirely out of hand. Ryan seems to be in some agreement with that. Further, I'm simply pointing out that there's no conceivable circumstance under which I'm going to involve myself in anything like even a "MODERATED question and answer" on ALP here when it's presented as a precondition for the silliness at hand to come to a stop.

The silliness needs to stop first.

(FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm eating my lunch right now and I'm back at work in ten minutes; additionally, I am posting from my own computer, and no company resources were utilized or consumed in the production of this comment, so don't even bother, okay?)

I may be mistaken, but didn't you try to use your 'sr4' nom de spin, in order to sidestep the ban at 1src.com - but you where discovered and banned again? (Or maybe that was what you did over here at PIC - can't keep up with all your antics.)

So, let me see if I've got this straight - 1src.com visitors live in 'ignorance' because you are not able to run your spin campaign over there? They are 'ignorant' because they don't like your transparent astroturfing? (Sounds like an enlightened approach to me.)

Lol.

Well, *I* believe it's all real. Some friendly questions (sorry if they've already been asked):

1) Any word yet from Palm on what they think of ALP?

2) What motivation will developers have to use MAX rather than Java or GTK? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the latter two 'since they're cross-platform?

3) Will ALP be purely phone-oriented or are Access planning to market it as a PDA OS too?

4) Who do we blame for Cobalt? ;) (kidding!)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

TVoR

Time will show you're WRONG, Marty. Bookmark this page.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:45:25 PM

No, Marty. China MobileSoft is now a Japanese company. And it will be exploited appropriately.

Care to make a wager, Marty? $100 donation to the charity of the winner's choice. I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

Access will sell off Cobalt, PalmLinux (+ maybe even Garnet)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:01:41 PM

I still expect that Access will (either by design or out of desperation) sell off the rights to Cobalt and PalmLinux code within a year or two*.

[*Another BOLD prediction from TVoR™]

Well would you look at that! Gosh!

And by the way, how many phones do we have available as of June 2007 shipping with Access' KludgeOS ALP-OS? None, you say? Shocking!

Ki o tsukete Schlesinger-san

Get back to work, biotch. Now.

TVoR

As a PalmSource manager and Access lackey, you must be under a lot of pressure right now trying to squash the bugs out of your KludgeOS... ummmm... ALP-OS. Why haven't we seen any devices running your OS yet, Mr. Schlesinger? Are your release dates slipping again? Designing an OS is hard work, isn't it? How's that SDK coming? And how are your introductory Japanese lessons going? Isn't Japanese a difficult language to learn? I will pray for you at the temple, Schlesinger-san.

I'm going to be in Mountain View tomorrow afternoon. Do you remember the name of that Japanese noodle house down there? The one with the counter. in the center and the tables around the edges. Maybe you, Marty and I can meet up for lunch there. Take care.

Hugs & Kisses as always
Ki o tsukete

TVoR

Not surprising, I didn't actually expect that the Mouth could possibly overcome its own craven cowardice.

Didn't make the ramen taste any different. Miso broth, extra negi, menmai and moyashi. Very good.

39 Clarence St.

TVoR
-Dave's new dinner buddy

P.S.
Presenting at conferences and developer meetings is a LOT different than getting your OS into devices and into the hands of consumers. We're still waiting for ALP-OS to show up on a real device and already this is the middle of 2007. I wonder how much time you think you really have to get your OS to market. It's sounding more and more like PalmSource/Access is going to pull another Cobalt...

I don't think you understand the business we're in. We've gotten our operating system into the hands of our customers--i.e. device manufacturers and carriers (like Orange); we did that back around 3GSM. We're currently working with a good number of those customers, progressing toward getting devices into the hands of their customers (i.e. carriers and end users).

We will almost certainly not be the ones to independently announce specific design wins or the timing of the release of specific products based on the ACCESS Linux Platform: that's not up to us. Our customers expect and receive confidentiality from us, and they get it, too.

PS: Byward Market's for tourists; a good place to go for dinner if you enjoy paying twice the going prices for food that's not as good as you can get elsewhere in Ottawa. I know much better places to go.

PPS: You had your opportunity to be my "dinner buddy". Sorry, I get stood up rarely, but never twice.

Rather than trying to pretend you know Ottawa and ending up showing everyone just how ignorant you actually are, I'd suggest you simply follow my advice. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone who has lived in Ottawa and knows what they're talking about. Dumba$$.

P.S. Please don't butcher the French language while you're up there. Merci bien, mon ami...

- TVoR + Mr. Crowley

TVoR

Translation: "I realize now that I made a mistake, but I'm not man enough to admit and apologize. And now I'm going to run off weeping and then go and sulk in my PalmSource cubicle."

1. I only just stepped off a plane 9 am Sunday morning, after having left the other side of the Pacific at 4 pm the same day. So if my sense of time is a bit off, you're just gonna have to live with it.

Is that how you admit you were wrong, David? Shame.

Find your own ramen place next time.

Wow. Did your panties get all knotted up again? Good. Too bad the knots won't affect you, since you don't have any cojones.

2. I know much better places in Ottawa, or at the very least, places I'm certain I'd prefer. Last year, I discovered a small place, well out of the way of traps like Byward Market, newly opened, serving a very unique "Native-American-inspired" cuisine. Know the place...?

I hope for your sake that it's not that so-called bistro where one of the staff was allegedly urinating in the stock last year. "The white man has stolen our land"... so now I'm going to get my revenge by pi$$ing in his food. (How clever.)

I'll definitely be going there again.

Just remember to not eat any yellow snow... or anything else there for that matter if you happen to see someone walking out of the kitchen with a big chip on their shoulder.

And it's not as though your benevolence and concern for the well-being of others has been so impressive that I'm itching to take dining recommendations from you. I don't even like (Eastern) Indian food.

Your loss. You should try to expand your culinary horizons a little beyond the regular rotation of Kraft Dinner, Top Ramen and Big Macs that presumably forms the bulk of your diet.

3. Having studied French in high school and college for a total of about seven years, worked for Crédit Lyonnais for two, and being fluent enough to manage quite well, thanks, in France doesn't help you all that much with Québeçois, which is a French more or less frozen in time, like around 1704. Even native French speakers have difficulties managing in Quebec. In any case, I'll "mangle" all the French I feel like, mon petit, vilain espèce de cafard.

As usual, you continue to amaze with your savant-like ability to be defensive, pouty, petty, pretentious and obnoxious all up the same time. It's nice to see that you appropriated the snotty attitude that Parisian French have towards the Québecois. It's a shame that you have also copied the Parisian French's aversion towards soap and water. Tant pis, mon ami. Hope you enjoy your Freedom Fries with your Big Mac.

I was right the first time: you contributed more with your absence that you did with your presence.

That... really... hurts... me... David.

I always wondered what would happen to Emo Kids that got older. After seeing you, now I know. It's not a pretty sight.

Ki o tsukete

TVoR

ZEN? Hell, this isn't even feng shui.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

Actually I was referring to the first image which depicts a primary menu screen, listing various environments like gTK. If you look at the first icon, it reads POS, which I assume to be POSE. Or perhaps that represents something else. But I think that's POSE.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

http://www.telecomwereld.nl/pic/news/206/mfone.jpg

It depicts a considerably different UI that what we're seeing here.

The phone is a Haier N60. It is known to run mLinux, as that's the OS it was released with. So, one of two things is true:

1) It's the same phone, running the same mLinux kernel, but with the various ALP bits -- which is what I mean by 'mLinux' -- sorry for not being clear.

or

2) It's the same phone, running a different linux kernel, but with the various ALP bits -- which is possible, but which would surprise me slightly.

and I think the media player ap is simply an mLinux ap running on the mLinux kernel. It might be another media player, of course, in which case it would be a MAX ap, but I doubt that even more.

May You Live in Interesting Times

And in the long run, we'll all be dead.

No, they paid $320 MILLION for StyleTap for Linux.

Unless NetFrontLinux is going to be free (or nearly free), having the China MobileSoft division is NOT going to suddenly open up the Chinese market for Access.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

http://www.fugly.com/media/view.php?cat=MOVIES&id=3409

Cobalt's problem was not that it was fake. It really did exist, at least in Nov '05, and was stable enough to use on a smart phone.

I wasn't around long enough to know why PSRC was unable to convince licensees to use it,

One thing I will say is that these photos pretty much demonstrate that Cobalt really is dead and that "PalmLinux" as I was working on it really is dead. And then, there's what's left of PalmOS: POSE.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Everything (only thing?) that is left from the old Palm OS ability to launch software written for it. Calling new OS Palm OS's successor is a really illogical thing to do, with the same amount of success you can call Windows Mobile with installed StypeTap emulator successor of Palm OS. The new OS from Access is OS based on Linux Core, with its own UI and Palm OS emulator.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

I'm OK with this. Put the PalmGUI over WINCE/WM and I'm happy.

It's too late for PalmOS as we know it.

Let's hope for PalmGUI layered over WINCE/WM. Let's hope WM6 *IS* PalmOS6.

In fact, that's along the lines of the idea I presented in this thread at TreoCentral:
http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=105532

Basically, Palm could add their own UI (not necessarily Palm-like, preferably something all-new) on top of CE.NET. They're already gaining experience with .NET and Gates could care less whether the world standardizes on WM, all he cares about is that he's getting a licensing fee. Palm could provide a nice SDK to plug into VS.NET and they'd have their own OS/GUI platform again, rather than compete against so many other WM licensees.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

no - what im talking about what has already been done with the 700w. have Palm, Inc. take some of their GUI ideas from the PalmOS Palms, and have MSFT roll those ideas into new versions of WM for EVERYONE. i think MSFT is allowing Palm to help them polish up new versions of WM and we will all benefit.

PalmOS 6 *IS* WM6. (I hope)

QT/Opie is exponentially WORSE than WinCE's old Win95 desktop metaphor. It's ugly, clumsy, poorly designed, and downright amateurish. TrollTech, please get out of this business and leave user interface design to companies that actually know how to design good software. Your making mobile devices look bad.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

Paul Mercer (Pixo)/Synaptics/Apple = iPod UI

Handspring's Treo 600 UI (lumping this in with the original PalmOS would be rude)

As far as OSes go one could argue the relative merits of these:
- BeOS
- OS/2
- MacOS X
- EPOC (on some PSION models)
- Windows XP

BMW iDrive (designed by A. Krauk Headde)

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

As for good UI's, I have a feeling we'll see some of the other feature-phone companies come up with some compelling interfaces. I'm seeing some very creative and usable aspects of some of the UIs in PMPs, the PSP and DS, etc. (though there's a lot of bad stuff there, too).

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

I think the iPod just takes the cake for UI out of all of the recent devices. Surprisingly, some of the new Sony TVs are pretty decent too but that's again a very low bar to overcome. The PSP has a nice scrolling UI upon first glance but it's not very intuitive. As Sony keeps piling on feature after feature it's only going to get more cumbersome.

One interface I DETESTED was the Zodiac's "hub" system.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

;-O

7 Series, 5 Series, 3 Series, Z4: ALL HIDEOUS!

Lexus and Acura (and even Infinti, with its fabulous G35 coupe) make BMW look like crap thesr days.

Anyone buying a BMW 3 Series instead of a Lexus IS 350 is a fool.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Please replace the wrench icon with the REAL OS logo it represents, Reverend. (BeOS? Amiga? OS/2? Inquiring minds want to know.) I can't wait for the "Revelations" when we finally see the name of this Beast of an OS, Pat.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823